Dogfight : F35 vs F16

[Vraciu]

The F-4 was a fantastic aircraft.  It's deficiencies were tied to pie-in-the-sky tactics that had no basis in the real world.  This was mitigated later through training.

Frankly, the F-4 would wreck the JSF.  Pole length matters.     The F-35 doesn't have the load out, fuel, or speed to beat anything.    It will get out-shot, out-persisted, and out-run.   

Cancel it. Please.

[Puma44]

World's most expensive light attack aircraft.  Can't dogfight, can't maneuver, exhibits extreme buffeting, but it can carry a couple small diameter bombs internally.  It's almost as if it's a big surprise that the pilots are finding the gigantic helmets awkward to use while under high G's.  I bet a lot of back and neck injuries will result from this.

History of the multi-service aircraft:
The F-4 was a mediocre.  Took special training for our pilots and even the Israelis to be successful with it.
The F-111 multi-service aircraft was a disaster.
VF-22 is a disaster.

Do you have flight time in any of these jets?

[DaveBB]

Do you have flight time in any of these jets?

No, but I watched an episode of "Wings" once on tv.

[Meatwad]

That hasnt been on since Discovery decided that reality shows are more important then factual educational learning shows

[Devil 505]

World's most expensive light attack aircraft.  Can't dogfight, can't maneuver, exhibits extreme buffeting, but it can carry a couple small diameter bombs internally.  It's almost as if it's a big surprise that the pilots are finding the gigantic helmets awkward to use while under high G's.  I bet a lot of back and neck injuries will result from this.

History of the multi-service aircraft:
The F-4 was a mediocre.  Took special training for our pilots and even the Israelis to be successful with it.
The F-111 multi-service aircraft was a disaster.
VF-22 is a disaster.

You forgot the A-1, A-7, Douglass Skywarrior/ B-66, UH-1, Ah-1, H-60 family, and H-53 family. Oh wait, those were successful.

[Oldman731]

No, but I watched an episode of "Wings" once on tv.

Hah! 

- oldman

[Gman]

First video I've seen of the F35 cranking on some Gs at low altitude in an "air show" mode.  All the other vids I've ever seen other than a few early test vids are of the US pilots treating it in a docile manner.  Try to ignore the euro-mmpssh mmmpsssh techno music.  F35s start flying a couple minutes in or so.

[Ack-Ack]

USMC had to pull 30 F/A-18Cs out of the boneyard and refit them for flight operations because of the delays into the F-35 program.

[DaveBB]

First video I've seen of the F35 cranking on some Gs at low altitude in an "air show" mode.  All the other vids I've ever seen other than a few early test vids are of the US pilots treating it in a docile manner.  Try to ignore the euro-mmpssh mmmpsssh techno music.  F35s start flying a couple minutes in or so.

What airbase is that at? Looks oddly familiar.

[FLOOB]

Oddly?

[Gman]

USMC had to pull 30 F/A-18Cs out of the boneyard and refit them for flight operations because of the delays into the F-35 program.

I read that a couple days ago as well - not just the F35 delays (mostly), but also the fact that 3/4 of the USMC fighters, FORCE WIDE, are unable to fight, right this second.  I just saw an interview withe one squadron CO who said of the 14 fighters he should have at full muster strength, he has 4 right now, and on the deployment he came off, only 5 flying at the end of it, and little hope to get more.  His squad is part of a carrier air wing that is set to deploy again in just a few months too, and the 7 fighters down have all been cannibalized to keep the other 4 up flying.  He said his pilots in the last year have gotten less than 25% of the air time they should be.  This problem is spread across the USMC, USN, and USAF squads to varying degrees.  The military is not in great shape, not a lot of folks are aware of this it seems.  Many sources claiming this if you search right now.

Maintainers are being overworked due to shortages of people, and the USAF alone is short over 700 pilots, 20% of the total force.  I guess since over 1/2 the aircraft are down for parts shortages, not having enough pilots isn't a big deal.  I sure hope China doesn't pick now as a time to start pushing hard in the South Pacific, the USA is NOT ready to fight a peer nation.  At all.

Of the Marine Corps' 276 F/A-18 Hornets, only 87 are currently flyable

Only 42 of the Marine Corps' 147 CH-53E Super Stallions are flyable, or about 28.5 percent of the CH-53E fleet

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story/military/2016/04/26/fleet-peril-how-congressional-budget-cuts-are-crippling-the-marines-air-power/81974498/


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/05/14/wiped-out-air-force-losing-pilots-and-planes-to-cuts-scrounging-for-spare-parts.html

https://fightersweep.com/5247/wiped-usaf-short-pilots-hunting-parts/


The bottom line is the entire American air power force is in a very precarious position, in real danger of becoming a "shambles" situation - so much has been bet on the F35, that if it doesn't perform, even better than advertised...not a good thing.

Added to which fact that the US air power budget is going to be out of money in 2021, just 5 years, if things continue the way they have been. 

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/air-space/air-force/2016/05/23/us-air-force-cant-afford-its-fighter-jets-past-2021/84789148/

A lot of bad news and indicators, and very few positives out there right now.  IMO, regardless if the F35 matures into a "wonder" machine or not, for the way it fits into the force structure, a sort of stealthy A7 Corsair with a whizzy helmet and "sensor fusion" - it should be dumped now, that money put into a build of about 200+ more F22s which are proven to be effective, and the rest of the $ put into shoring up the existing fleet of tactical and strategic aircraft, before it's too late.

[Vulcan]

I sure hope China doesn't pick now as a time to start pushing hard in the South Pacific,

I heard the entire US education system is struggling with geographic skills as well 

Just FYI China is pushing hard in the South China Sea, which is nowhere near the South Pacific. In fact it's north of the equator (thats the big line around the earth...) so it is in fact closer to the North Pacific.

In the South Pacific China is just using money to buy fishing/mineral rights from poor pacific nations. No need for guns.

[Gman]

Ok, so blending "South China sea" with  "Pacific" to "South Pacific" was a misnomer.  Having lived in Hong Kong for most of 1996 it's perspective I guess.  Sort of like the "South" of the USA being north of the equator, yet South by perspective to the eastern seaboard states/area.  The South China sea is by definition part of the Pacific.  And the actual South Pacific and neutralizing the influence and defensive postures of Aus, NZ, and by extension the USA is really China's ultimate goal in the area, so the South Pacific is actually more important than the South China Sea, which is just window dressing really.  Your 'no guns needed' in the South Pac is pretty funny.  I'm sure if war starts China will respect the equator as an impassible barrier and just leave you alone.  Sort of like Japan did...




Perhaps you should take the geography lesson, last time I checked we didn't have the US education system here in Canada. 

[Vulcan]

No guns needed?

Australia is one of the buyers for the JSF. They have quite a strong military. Their main concern is Indonesia, not China, Indonesia is the largest Islamic country in the world btw. NZs military is a lot smaller, we focus on quality not quantity. We could never maintain an effective combat air force so we focus on logistics capabilities so we can augment Australias capabilities.

Also of note is Fiji, one of their biggest exports is their army (used heavily by the UN).

China has significant investments in the South Pacific. They don't really need to start war. It would do them more damage. TBH the US influence in the South Pacific is very weak. Most island nations have had china throwing money at them for the last decade. NZ loves chinas trade (it comes with less hooks that trading with the US as long as we're happy to ignore the human rights thing). Australia is even going through economic hard times because mineral demand has declined from china.

You need a ladder to get out of that geography hole you're digging

[Gman]

And you're digging yourself into a logic free hole.  Where else is my geography lacking?  You made a similar gaff, you forget to mention that again...

China has significant investments in the South Pacific. They don't really need to start war. It would do them more damage.

So, by that rationale since China has more investments in the USA than anywhere else - period - they shouldn't really be making moves that could start one.  Yet they are.  Every day, between cyber warfare, Fighters doing barrel rolls around surveillance aircraft in international airspace, ramming allies of the USA's ships, directing ECM stuff at US aircraft...yep, no need for guns as your previous post, the Chinese are completely friendly due to their investments.  I suppose due to Germany's investments and trade with Russia it was safe - except for that little problem in the end of June/41. 

Australia has quite a strong military?  Compared to China.  That's pretty laughable.  Should I start posting stuff from Chinese defense sites, orders of battle, etc?  Australia is outnumbered in every single category by 10 to 1, and 50 to 1 in some.  There are single regiments of J10, J11, and other fighters that have 2x as many aircraft as the entire Aus air force, and their navy and army?  Don't be ridiculous.  Indonesia while large in population has little clout on the stage with the USA, Nato, 5 eyes nations that have interests in the area, etc.  China's primary focus is getting Taiwan under their control, and exerting control over all the other nations in the seas near to them, including the South Pac nations of Aus, NZ, and so forth.  Yes China has a rift with Indo in the Natunas and elsewhere, but China certainly doesn't consider them the primary military threat to neutralize through both political and military means.  And they aren't, what, 6 Frigates, 5 old submarines, and a handful of corvette/missile boats, and an air force with less than 40 fighters?  China has nearly 200 stealth fast 8 missile carrying missile boats alone, and has piles of modern Frigs, Destroyers, Subs, and is building more at a rate far outpacing anyone else, including the USA.  Fly, meet swatter. 

Also, if the USA has little influence in the area, why did it pivot its entire military posture there, and why are, oh, I don't know, 10 or so countries screaming for US help and intervention with China, and asking for weapon sales, support, and all the rest?

No need to cheerlead your NZ armed forces, 2 guys from the NZ SAS worked for the same company as I doing PSD work, and were very switched on individuals.   NZ, like Canada and Australia, is very similar regarding their military punching above its weight.