Dogfight : F35 vs F16

[Squire]

just an expensive disappointment.

The verbal judo has already started...don't say failure say ___ instead. Sounds not quite as bad.

[GScholz]

It's probably a good idea to keep some hundreds of F22's for quite some time.

The F-35 is never going to replace the F-22. The F-22 and F-35 are two different parts of the USAF's fighter system. Just like the F-15 and F-16.

[GScholz]

The verbal judo has already started...don't say failure say ___ instead. Sounds not quite as bad.

Thing is the only people who use those words are media talking heads and internet trolls. The pilots use quite different words.

[Vraciu]

The F-35 is never going to replace the F-22. The F-22 and F-35 are two different parts of the USAF's fighter system. Just like the F-15 and F-16.

That's not the spin they're putting on this piece of junk.  "It's everything the F-22 is--only better."   Right...

[Vraciu]

Thing is the only people who use those words are media talking heads and internet trolls. The pilots use quite different words.

Pilots who have orders from on high.  "Too big to fail."   Marine pilots had a lot of good things to say about the F2A also.  Midway proved they were optimistic.

The internet trolls that you dismiss are armed with something undeniable: FACTS.   

The Joint Strike Failure is a complete dud.  It has failed every single metric--spectacularly.   Even the cheerleader/fanboi Bogdon is chirping harsh realities now.

88 Sorties =15 Bombs

You can't make this stuff up.

[Vraciu]

It will not be a complete disaster (hopefully) but given the amount money invested it's a disappointment. The money would have been enough for like 10.000 legacy fighters and the F-35 isn't that good that it's better than 10000 'conventional' fighters.
Sadly it would even have been better to spend the money on F-22:s instead.  1.5 trillion dollars its enough for plenty of Raptors (150 million a piece means >6000 raptors...)

So no, there is no way that it could be said that the F-35 is worth the money invested..

Edit: Development and production cost is so far 379 Billion $ But its still enough to buy 2.500 Raptors at 150 million a piece. (would be lower if they build 2500 of them so in reality the money would still be enough to buy an equal number of Raptors instead of the F-35..)

Exactly.   The money spent on the Just So Failed would have been better spent on F-15SE, F-15SA, F-16, F-22, and Super Hornet buys.  We would then have an air arm that is not falling apart before our eyes. 

[GScholz]

It will not be a complete disaster (hopefully) but given the amount money invested it's a disappointment. The money would have been enough for like 10.000 legacy fighters and the F-35 isn't that good that it's better than 10000 'conventional' fighters.
Sadly it would even have been better to spend the money on F-22:s instead.  1.5 trillion dollars its enough for plenty of Raptors (150 million a piece means >6000 raptors...)

So no, there is no way that it could be said that the F-35 is worth the money invested..

Edit: Development and production cost is so far 379 Billion $ But its still enough to buy 2.500 Raptors at 150 million a piece. (would be lower if they build 2500 of them so in reality the money would still be enough to buy an equal number of Raptors instead of the F-35..)

The 1.5 trillion Dollar figure does not only represent the cost of buying planes, but also infrastructure upgrades, personnel training and 50 years worth of spare parts. At the current production lot an F-35A goes for $98 million. An F-35A purchased in 2018 and delivered in 2020 will be $85 million, which is the equivalent of $75 million in today’s dollars. Most people don't seem to understand economy of scale, or any other economic realities for that matter. Some people can't even balance their credit cards.

[Vraciu]

The 1.5 trillion Dollar figure does not only represent the cost of buying planes, but also dinfrastructure upgrades, personnel training and 50 years worth of spare parts. At the current production lot an F-35A goes for $98 million. An F-35A purchased in 2018 and delivered in 2020 will be $85 million, which is the equivalent of $75 million in today’s dollars. Most people don't seem to understand economy of scale, or any other economic realities for that matter. Some people can't even balance their credit cards.

Some people don't understand 88 sorties for 15 bombs or being waxed in a dogfight by an F-16D. 

I have a Masters in Economics.   Your numbers are based on flawed assumptions and are not fly away costs--among many other errors.


Unit price per a 2015 Defense Committee report (US Congress):

F-35A (USAF) costs $148 million.
F-35B (USMC) costs $251 million.
F-35C (USN) costs $337 million.

If we took the average based on total procurement a single F-35 would cost $178 million and climbing

That's a long way from what was promised--"Cheaper than an F-16."   How many Vipers can I buy for a single JSF?   Three?  Four?  Five?

The JSF rah rah squad can keep spinning, but the numbers don't lie.

[GScholz]

F-35C is coming along nicely.

[Zimme83]

Thing is the only people who use those words are media talking heads and internet trolls. The pilots use quite different words.

Not really. Even those that pays the bill, including Pentagon have fired a lot of criticism against LM and the F-35.

[Zimme83]

The F-35 is still incapable of flying any kind of combat missions, it will still take a few years until the necessary software is developed and tested..

[GScholz]

See Rule #4

[Zimme83]

It seems like you're running out of arguments.

[GScholz]

See Rule #4

[Vraciu]

It seems like you're running out of arguments.

He ran out a long time ago.

Can't even post real numbers, instead is using pie-in-the-sky "economies of scale" fuzzy math based on a procurement of 10,000 jets (which will never ever happen).

We are approaching $200M per unit for a jet that was supposed to be cheaper than the F-16 to procure and operate (it doesn't meet the latter either).