Dogfight : F35 vs F16

[GScholz]

If the only issue with the F-35 was its lack of "dogfight" agility I might have a different opinion on it but that's not the case.

The F-35 does not lack "dogfight agility". The much publisized F-35 vs F-16 test was done with software limiting the F-35 to 5 Gs. Of course the media or F-35 haters never consider that. Morten "Dolby" Hanche explained that a stripped down F-16 would have a slightly better sustained turn rate, but the F-35 has better instantaneous turn rate. And at the time he flew with the 3i software limiting his jet to 7 Gs. With the Block 3F software the F-35 will have its full 9 G load limit available.

[nrshida]

Yeah, it was clever, Shida.  It guaranteed LockMart got paid.   Crafty.  Shady.   These words also come to mind.

Metainferring I think it was a foregone conclusion that Lockheed Martin would get the contract from the outset. I don't like the design, I think the early design process was poorly executed but the development process is very clever.

[LCADolby]

Reminds me of the time that crappy design was picked over TSR. I hear that was brown envelopes

[GScholz]

We could have ended up with this...

[Vraciu]

We could have ended up with this...

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

We don't justify bad behavior with other bad behavior.

At least the Boeing design wouldn't melt the runway on VSTOL.

[Vraciu]

The F-35 does not lack "dogfight agility". The much publisized F-35 vs F-16 test was done with software limiting the F-35 to 5 Gs. Of course the media or F-35 haters never consider that. Morten "Dolby" Hanche explained that a stripped down F-16 would have a slightly better sustained turn rate, but the F-35 has better instantaneous turn rate. And at the time he flew with the 3i software limiting his jet to 7 Gs. With the Block 3F software the F-35 will have its full 9 G load limit available.

It is a slug.   Software is just an excuse.

The Big Motor Viper will chew this thing to pieces.   I can't imagine what an SU-27 will do to it.

Well, that's assuming it can even get airborne.   If the fuel is too hot or the plug and pray software doesn't recognize a new part....etc.

And it has TREMENDOUS thermal energy issues as it is.   It flies low where it is hot...and as the fuel heats up the avionics shut down.  Great idea. 

[Vraciu]

Metainferring I think it was a foregone conclusion that Lockheed Martin would get the contract from the outset. I don't like the design, I think the early design process was poorly executed but the development process is very clever.

I meant that it's a scheme to milk the taxpayer.   A trillion dollars.  It's just like "Shovel Ready Jobs" but in a different guise.

RIPOFF.

The thing would have been useful 12 years ago.  Today?  Not so much.

[GScholz]

U.S. Navy speaks... 

[Vraciu]

U.S. Navy speaks... 

The same people who approved the Super Hornet with toed pylons.   Derp.   But at least the Super brings utility.   The Just So Failed won't.

Propaganda.   Gotta' keep the flying club going.

(The USN is trying to get OUT of the Joint Strike Failure program.  They're looking ahead to a SUPER SUPER HORNET because this thing brings no value.   They also have to reduce their squadron size by two airplanes just to get them on deck.   Not a good situation.)

[Meatwad]

We could have ended up with this...

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

Looks like a jet with down syndrome

[Vraciu]

Looks like a jet with down syndrome

But it didn't melt the tarmac.

Nobody has a way to forward deploy the USMC T/A-35.  The pads it needs won't fit in any current transport.  Good plan!

[Vulcan]

U.S. Navy speaks... 

The way he talks about sensor / head tracking you'd think they've got a gun turret on it or something

News for him - rear aspect shots aren't magic - and that's if you can turn your head to check your 6 (which apparently you cannot!)

[Gman]

I caught that too Vulcan - I man not even have to move my plane, just turn my head and shoot the guy.  Okay, with a forward facing missile that is VERY likely to be carried interenally, which means a longer firing cycle as it can't just "come off the rail, it deeds to drop, ignite, THEN begin its 180 or whatever turn - all wasted E, while the guy behind you is already got weapons guiding on you or is setting you up for a guns tracking run.

IMO the F35 is a good little aircraft, UNTIL it gets intercepted in the rear quarter by any gen 4 to 4.5 to 5 fighter, and then I think it'll be in trouble - heh trouble might be the best case scenario.  In numbers, nose on...who knows, maybe the F35 WILL dominate current airborne threats, but god forbid getting jumped and starting from a bad position.  Old famous "Dolby" sure didn't mention how that had been working out it borty borty bort air school.

I'd love nothing more to read that in Redflag the 6 F35Bs mowed everything in site, ground targets, red air packs, from both offensive and defensive positions...since this hasn't come out yet, and it's been over for a week...I have my doubts it was all wine and roses.  The 6 USMC F35 were the only ones that participated, no AF, FOreign, or Navy F35, just the B model, which had just wiped the floor with a tyipal USMC x they do for a A2AD penetration x, where the F35Bs got their "velociraptor" knickname from the USMC gen describing the event.  Comms dark on Redflag so far though....

[Vulcan]

Personally I think too much weight is placed on the F-35s stealth and tech. Especially given how much data the chinese have (despite GSs complete ignorance/denials on the Lockheed hacks the US are now claiming the latest Chinese designs are from stolen Lockheed tech).

People keep comparing it to the F-117, but the F-117 was essentially a subsonic very stealthy light bomber - not designed to actively engage enemy aircraft. Not a multimission platform designed to actively engage.

I know GS is going to call this tin foil hat stuff again... so just for you GS, here is an except from evidence presented in a US court in the prosecution of Chinese national who broke into networks and stole data ( Su Bin ):

An NSA document states that China obtained more than 50 terabytes—a huge amount of data—from U.S. defense and government networks, including the F-35 radar and engine secrets. The data included numbers and types of F-35 radar modules, and detailed engine schematics for the Lockheed Martin aircraft.

And this case specifically relates to the stealing of C-17 plans aka the Xian Y-20

[Zimme83]

In the background you can also see an airborne radar, just by a coincident looking like this:



But it's a wise thing to do to assume that the opponents will have their own stealth fighters and also methods of detecting stealth aircrafts. An advantage due to stealth will not last forever, especially since the F-35 is going to fly for at least 30-40 years.