Author Topic: Eastern Front 1943 -- which plane set is better  (Read 8329 times)

Offline Zimme83

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Re: Eastern Front 1943 -- which plane set is better
« Reply #45 on: May 11, 2016, 11:40:17 AM »
It was, but down and dirty was still 10-20k.
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Offline GScholz

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Re: Eastern Front 1943 -- which plane set is better
« Reply #46 on: May 11, 2016, 07:02:39 PM »
I find it funny that the magical "ceiling" is set at exactly the same altitude as the full pressure height of the Lavochkin. And of course cutting the 109 off from its historical altitude advantage.



With regard to the question of which plane set is best I'm going to have to change my answer. Clearly, and by apparent design, the VVS plane set is going to be the best in this scenario. In blatant disregard of history.
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Offline Zimme83

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Re: Eastern Front 1943 -- which plane set is better
« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2016, 07:35:41 PM »
20K seems like a good ceiling, for the sake of fun. Its also about having the sides resonable even.
And if you are worried about the LA then compare it with the 190:


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Offline GScholz

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Re: Eastern Front 1943 -- which plane set is better
« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2016, 07:41:42 PM »
How does it make it more fun?
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Offline Zimme83

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Re: Eastern Front 1943 -- which plane set is better
« Reply #49 on: May 11, 2016, 07:47:50 PM »
Not having one side with a significant advantage usually makes it more fun, and people would no sign up for the side that is clearly inferior.
9 out of 30 VVS fighters are La:s, the rest have a significant disadvantage against the 109 and 190. Above 20k it would be even worse.
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Offline Brooke

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Re: Eastern Front 1943 -- which plane set is better
« Reply #50 on: May 11, 2016, 07:54:44 PM »
GSholz, no need to get huffy.

With regard to fuel burn, you and Artik brought it up.  I agree -- you guys are right.  I will be editing the rules writeup to have fuel burn of 1.0.  So, that one is solved.  Thanks for bringing it up, but there is no need to continue harping on it.

With regard to "Why would anyone do X."  In Scenarios, my goal is:  maximum realism given a need also for playability.  In other words, I want to maximize two things that often pull in opposite directions:  realism and playability.  Also, there is no mathematical formula that I can solve to get the provable optimum -- I have to use my judgement, which is definitely not perfect.  Sometimes I will make the best choice.  Sometimes, I won't -- but it is not due to lack of trying, lack of desire, or bad motivations.  Also, because such things are subject to judgement, people can have different opinions on what is best to do.

Fuel burn is modified in scenarios to account for the fact that our maps are much smaller than real life.  For example, in Battle of Britain, if we don't adjust fuel burn higher, we have 109's with much greater than historical loiter time over England or much longer range into England than historical.  So, for increased realism, we increase the burn rate.  Some scenarios are like that.  This one, as you correctly pointed out, is a different matter and should have burn rate back to 1.0 because there are different dynamics than just map size for Eastern Front.

As for alt cap, that is based also on a desire for realism.  I want the style of fighting to be like what I've read about in books about Eastern Front air combat.  It is not realistic for Eastern Front fights to commonly be at 38k (which is what would be going on with no alt cap -- for example in Malta scenarios where we don't have alt caps, fights have gone up to almost 40k).  There are lots of reasons Eastern Front fights were typically not that high, and some of those reasons, I can't replicate in the arena, so I have to pick some other way to give the same effect.  I can't just throw in thick clouds above a certain altitude because all planes in AH have in-cockpit GPS, and so they can use clouds in ways that are highly unrealistic.  (One intriguing way that will bear future experimentation is just how visibility works in AH3, where unlike in AH2 you can have real problems seeing aircraft against the ground when you are up too high -- maybe it means we won't need alt caps anymore.)

So, knowing this, what did I do?  I bought five Kindle books on Eastern European aerial combat that I could search electronically, with first-hand accounts from Eastern Front pilots both German and Soviet, and spent the time to search all of them for every reference to altitude of bombing and fighter combat.  What I found was a very large number of references to low-altitude action.  For specific numbers, I found the vast majority of references to combats from the deck on up to about 15k or so.  I saw only one reference to a fight above 20k (Guther Rall flying at 19,000 ft, spotting a Russian recon plane at 26,000 ft, and climbing up to shoot it).

Wanting to make the fighting happen at realistic alts, past scenarios have shown one way that works well as judged by the player base -- alt cap. (By the way, in some scenarios, we have no alt caps because either the planes involved can't get up to unrealistic alts or the realistic alts are very high, so no need.  Malta is an in-between case.  I don't have a lot of references to what typical alts were, so I haven't tended to put an alt cap in that one.  As a result, some folks fly at approaching 40k, which has resulted in complaints to me about the unrealistic nature of that.  No matter what I choose as a Scenario CM, I get crabbed at by someone, which sucks.)

At any rate, that is the answer to why.  It is not to make things gamey or to force it to be like the MA but in fact the exact opposite motivation.  It is to make the action more like what we read about in accounts by the real pilots, so that when a player flies in a scenario, the action he experiences is like what he reads about in 1st-hand accounts of typical action in that battle or region.  But I have to do it in AH in situations where we can't put in all real-life constraints that caused real pilots to fly at those typical alts.

As to whether this one aspect -- a 20k alt cap -- is the difference between you flying in the event and having fun or deciding not to participate, that is up to you, of course.  My long discussion here is not primarily designed to convince you to play (which is your own choice) but, because you brought in a public forum insinuations that my goals are the opposite of what they are in reality, I wanted to be thorough in saying that I completely disagree and why.

Offline GScholz

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Re: Eastern Front 1943 -- which plane set is better
« Reply #51 on: May 11, 2016, 08:00:32 PM »
I would never presume to tell you what to do. This is your gig. I will however voice my displeasure and disappointment... Which I now have done. Good night.
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Offline Brooke

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Re: Eastern Front 1943 -- which plane set is better
« Reply #52 on: May 11, 2016, 08:20:07 PM »
By the way, while I consider alt caps a thing that adds realism, not detracts from it, there are changes in the design away from realism for playability's sake:  even numbers between LW and VVS (as one side significantly outnumbering the other in AH is very hard to balance and usually results in the undermanned side getting creamed and being disgruntled), no Stukas (as I doubted that I could get players willing to register for them), no I-16 (for similar reason to Stuka, although in hindsight, I probably could have gotten some folks in them, so I will keep that in mind for next time).

By the way, GSholz, 20k wasn't picked to disadvantage the LW.  It was picked as a round number below which most fights on the Eastern Front took place.  It could have been 18k or 22k or whatever.  I fly LW more than any other side in scenarios (109's in BoB 2004, Ju 88's in Operation Husky, 109 in DGS frame 2, 109's in BoB 2008, Ju 88's in Tunisia, 109's in Final Battle, 109's in Battle Over Germany, 190A-5's in Enemy Coast Ahead, 190's in Winter Sky, 190's in DGS II, Ju 88's in Mediterranean Maelstrom, He 111's in BoB 2013).  I don't have a grudge against LW planes.  Likewise, having flown them, I don't feel disadvantaged flying them against anyone in any scenario.

There are some ahistorical advantages to the Luftwaffe in this one.  The Luftwaffe has a big advantage in FW 190F-8's instead of Stukas.  Also, 190F-8's are substantially better fighters once their bombs are gone compared to Il-2's.  The 190A-5 and 109G-6 are *plenty* competitive vs. the overall VVS plane set, including La-5's, yet only some of the VVS set is La-5's.  The rest are P-39's, Yak-7b's, and Yak-9T's.

All of this factors into ideas of balance.  I think the sides are relatively well balanced, or I would have picked one I thought was better balanced.

I thought that the hardest group in the whole scenario to fill would be the Il-2's -- that's why I registered for those and recruited to fill them.  Otherwise, I would have flown something else.

Offline Zimme83

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Re: Eastern Front 1943 -- which plane set is better
« Reply #53 on: May 11, 2016, 08:25:34 PM »
I would say that it is a good setup and I dont see the need for higher alt cap, LW can still enjoy a rather significant advantage between 15-20k since only the 9 La:s will have the performance to match the LW-fighters.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 08:42:32 PM by Zimme83 »
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Offline Brooke

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Re: Eastern Front 1943 -- which plane set is better
« Reply #54 on: May 11, 2016, 08:30:03 PM »
I would never presume to tell you what to do. This is your gig. I will however voice my displeasure and disappointment... Which I now have done. Good night.

Well, since fuel burn is now 1.0 and reading my explanation of why alt caps are 20k (which includes lots of reasons, including results of electronic searches of alts in 5 books on Eastern Front fighting), are you still full of displeasure and disappointment?

Offline GScholz

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Re: Eastern Front 1943 -- which plane set is better
« Reply #55 on: May 11, 2016, 08:49:29 PM »
Most fights in the east may have been below 20k, but the LW always started from a position as high as they practically could. There are many ways to balance a fight and personally I think any gamey restriction like your alt cap ruins the one single thing scenarios do better than arenas: Immersion. You have all these various tools at your disposal including number of lives, plane set mix, scoring, mission objectives and many more. You could reduce dot range so planes flying at silly alts can't see below 15k where the bombers and attack planes are. You could give the Reds more Lavochkins and more lives, and adjust scoring accordingly so the LW would have to work harder for less score (which would be historically correct btw.) There are so many other and better ways to balance a fight that a *magical wind* should be last on the list. Just my honest opinion mind you. Like I said, this is your gig.
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Offline Brooke

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Re: Eastern Front 1943 -- which plane set is better
« Reply #56 on: May 11, 2016, 09:17:05 PM »
Most fights in the east may have been below 20k, but the LW always started from a position as high as they practically could.

Absolutely.  But, from my searching in those books, the highest they could do that was typically below 20k.  Above that, they wouldn't see the Il-2's down in the dirt or the fighters escorting them.  Even in relatively clear air, unlike in AH2, it's hard to see them down there if you are at 30k.  They often didn't fly in gaggles of 50 planes, but not infrequently 4-8 Il-2's and a few fighters down low, so you can't look down from 30k and spot that easily.  The other is that there were often too many clouds, and they had to be below them to see.  I can't put in layers of clouds in AH or people will use them to have invisible planes as they fly to target with GPS.

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There are many ways to balance a fight and personally I think any gamey restriction like your alt cap ruins the one single thing scenarios do better than arenas: Immersion.

Having the alt cap is specifically to enhance immersion.  Without it, we will have battles starting at 38k, just like in Malta.  We will have people flying patrols at 30k or 35k, spotting a handful of planes flying along at 1k alt.  I know this because that is how it has gone in many other scenarios that don't have alt caps.  For them, it's OK, as that is the realistic action.  Here, it isn't. If folks are doing that, they are not getting realistic immersion -- it is gamey and false flying patrols at 35k in this one.

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You have all these various tools at your disposal including number of lives, plane set mix, scoring, mission objectives and many more. You could reduce dot range so planes flying at silly alts can't see below 15k where the bombers and attack planes are.

Many settings -- like that one -- are sort of flaky and unreliable and don't work the way you think.  Under certain conditions that aren't uncommon, you can easily see bombers from large distances.  This maybe completely different in AH3, which might obviate worry over alts.

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You could give the Reds more Lavochkins and more lives, and adjust scoring accordingly so the LW would have to work harder for less score (which would be historically correct btw.) There are so many other and better ways to balance a fight that a *magical wind* should be last on the list. Just my honest opinion mind you. Like I said, this is your gig.

VVS didn't have all La-5's.  I already gave them more La-5's than they had as a historical mix.  Realism and immersion are reduced when you have an Eastern Front battle fighting all La-5's when there were Yaks and P-39's around.  Also, once you start making the setup asymmetric in lives, number of people, etc., you run enormous risks of balance.  I have been playing in and designing scenarios since 1993 -- I have seen a very large number of designs and tests of concepts, and I know a lot of things that seem great but don't work in practice or have unacceptable risks with regard to playability.

Why don't you at least give it a try and see what it's like?  Even if you try it and don't like it and then quit, the time you spent flying in it contributes to the enjoyment of others.

Offline GScholz

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Re: Eastern Front 1943 -- which plane set is better
« Reply #57 on: May 11, 2016, 09:24:16 PM »
This is your gig and I will defer to your expertise in this matter. Still don't like magic though.
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: Eastern Front 1943 -- which plane set is better
« Reply #58 on: May 11, 2016, 09:24:45 PM »
Why don't you at least give it a try and see what it's like?  Even if you try it and don't like it and then quit, the time you spent flying in it contributes to the enjoyment of others.

Good point.

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Offline Brooke

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Re: Eastern Front 1943 -- which plane set is better
« Reply #59 on: May 11, 2016, 09:29:11 PM »
Still don't like magic though.

I'm with you on that.  I have thought about several other ways to accomplish it, and if I thought there was a better way to get historical immersion in terms of historically correct alts (instead of everyone flying around at 35k when historical is more like 16k), I would do it.

AH3 might provide the answer to that in the way visibility works -- I am hopeful.