Author Topic: Defensive maneuvers against the dive  (Read 9269 times)

Offline TXDELTA

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Defensive maneuvers against the dive
« on: May 28, 2016, 03:52:21 AM »
Whenever i get into an engagement it always seems as though I don't have the alt advantage and the enemy is always diving on top and I quickly panic because I have no idea how to counter it! Most of the time it is usually an f4u, jug, or p38 diving in and than I lose it and get cut down  :uhoh. Trying not to be a bug but what are some techniques or maneuvers  that I can work on  for manuevering against this?
 

 

Offline Bruv119

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Re: Defensive maneuvers against the dive
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2016, 03:57:35 AM »
Barrel Roll Defence.
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Offline JunkyII

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Re: Defensive maneuvers against the dive
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2016, 06:00:17 AM »
Going to try to explain what Bruv said in text form....probably going to turn out bad.

Enemy is at your high 6 O clock starting their dive in on you.

My immediate response is to barely nose down...like less than 500 foot decent rate. This will even out the speeds of the planes a little bit. At 800 to 1k you want to start your initial turn...right hand left hand doesn't matter unless your playing torque...and depending on the situation you want it to be flat/nose up/nose down. By the time they reach 600 you want to have your wing tip pointing at their nose forming a 90 degree angle. Then you just pull up into a loop focusing on what your opponent is doing next....if he is keeping hold of his E...hold onto yours...if he is dumping it trying to follow you into the loop just dump all your throttle and manuever behind him...he will most likely overshoot in a bad way opening you up for the kill.

The BRD is what most decent sticks in game do every time to manuever away from a con....should definitely be on all virtual pilots list of manuevers they want to learn.
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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Defensive maneuvers against the dive
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2016, 08:43:28 AM »
This video shows a good maneuver. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAi_TRAV4E8&feature=youtu.be

The idea is to just stay out of his guns. You know he is going to shoot at 400 or so, so as he closes to that range maneuver. Some people like to drag the bad guy a bit with a nose low very gradual turn. As they get closer tighten the turn more and more until the diving plane has too much speed and cant pull the lead for the shot, at which point you can level out to build E or as in the film roll up and into him for a snap shot. The trick is to last as long as you can, one, to be saved by a friend/picker  :devil or two, to equalize the E state and have the fight start to turn your way.

Offline LCADolby

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Re: Defensive maneuvers against the dive
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2016, 11:23:40 AM »
If all else fails turn 90' to them and point your wing at them while pulling back on the stick.
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Offline FLS

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Re: Defensive maneuvers against the dive
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2016, 11:51:53 AM »
Whenever i get into an engagement it always seems as though I don't have the alt advantage and the enemy is always diving on top and I quickly panic because I have no idea how to counter it! Most of the time it is usually an f4u, jug, or p38 diving in and than I lose it and get cut down  :uhoh. Trying not to be a bug but what are some techniques or maneuvers  that I can work on  for manuevering against this?
 

Assuming you can turn as well or better than the bandit, point your nose at them if you can and head into the circle they make with their turn. Keep enough speed so you can maneuver. If you can stay inside their turn they can't shoot you.

You don't need an altitude advantage if you know how to merge and fly into the bandit's turn circle.  You  might also need to work on gaining energy in a fight instead of blowing your speed and altitude at the start.

« Last Edit: May 28, 2016, 12:02:49 PM by FLS »

Offline Puma44

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Re: Defensive maneuvers against the dive
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2016, 02:06:58 PM »
Maneuver your lift vector to keep him from getting in plane with you.



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Offline Randy1

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Re: Defensive maneuvers against the dive
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2016, 04:14:16 PM »
Whenever i get into an engagement it always seems as though I don't have the alt advantage and the enemy is always diving on top and I quickly panic because I have no idea how to counter it! Most of the time it is usually an f4u, jug, or p38 diving in and than I lose it and get cut down  :uhoh. Trying not to be a bug but what are some techniques or maneuvers  that I can work on  for manuevering against this?
 

Start with the basic flat turn for now then once you have mastered that then go on other defensive moves.  When you see the red diving at about 1.5K out start your turn using moderate aggression.  keep watching the diver.  If the red is staying with you turn harder.  You want to use his speed to his disadvantage.  Keep increasing your rate of turn if you have too to the point your pulling under his nose.  If the red has good throttle control, this simple defensive maneuver might fail but the red hurt his E position and often meet his end.

Stick with it.  Don't give up and don't worry if you get shoot down. 

Offline morfiend

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Re: Defensive maneuvers against the dive
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2016, 04:21:56 PM »
Maneuver your lift vector to keep him from getting in plane with you.


  I wonder if you could explain exactly how to do this?


    I understand but many others dont.


     Tx,   We were doing this the other night,once you got above and behind me I was doing a break turn,turning hard back into you,then I would go into the barrel roll defense. As you saw it was effective.


  Now I'll sit back and let those who can write more eloquently than I can explain the rest.


    :salute

Offline Dragon Tamer

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Re: Defensive maneuvers against the dive
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2016, 06:12:36 PM »
Break right or left, most of the time they are going too fast to hold the turn.

If it looks like their nose is pointing in front of you, you can take a gamble and pull up. Sometimes you will pass right in front of their nose before the can get a shot off and you will be in a better position to counter.

Offline JunkyII

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Re: Defensive maneuvers against the dive
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2016, 06:50:07 AM »
  Now I'll sit back and let those who can write more eloquently than I can explain the rest.


    :salute
I hate not being able to put speech to text  :aok
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Offline Kingpin

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Re: Defensive maneuvers against the dive
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2016, 07:15:45 PM »
I've posted a couple AH films here in the Films and Screenshots section of the forum which you can watch and study (read some notes below first): http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,379560.0.html

The first film, called "190D9 dodging", was posted by MtnMan a while back in a thread talking about defensive maneuvers.  In this film, MtnMan is in a lower, slower Corsair and defeats multiple attacks made by a BnZing 190.

It is a good example of several of the things mentioned above.  As you watch the film look for the following:  rolling your lift vector into the attacker, making a slightly nose low break turn back into the attacker, tightening the break turn as they close, rolling to point your 3/9 line at the attacker at the point of overshoot, pulling into the vertical to stay out of plane and defeat their shot attempt, then rolling back into the attacker to attempt a reversal.

This film is also an excellent example of what to do if the attacking BnZ fighter DOESN'T fall for the Barrel Roll Defense (doesn't try to follow you through your break turn, doesn't dump his E and doesn't pass below you during your reversal attempt).  The BRD will not always work if the attacker maintains speed, rolls away from your reversal turn, doesn't pass under you, and goes vertical to maintain his energy advantage.  You will see this repeatedly in this film. The attacker doesn't make the mistake of falling for the Barrel Roll Defense reversal and doesn't give MtnMan a shot -- however MtnMan defeats all his attacks and survives the encounter.

When that happens, it might take several defensive merges before the energy difference is small enough to get more aggressive on your reversal attempts.  If the attacker never dumps some E to pull lead for a shot, he can continually reset but he will also have a hard time killing you.  This can often result in a protracted stalemate.  As the defender, one thing to consider is that if the attacker never makes a mistake or never fully commits, you can be defending for a while -- plan accordingly and perhaps make your post-merge extensions in the direction of a friendly base or toward friendly fighters so that the attacker has to get impatient or run the risk of getting into a bad position himself. 

A few tips on watching this film and using the film viewer:

1) Initially use External view mode -- the rear view in the Corsair is not good from the default position, so you will have a much better perspective from external view.  You can always go back and watch it from cockpit view once you have a good idea what the maneuvers are that he is making.

2) Select "Use recorded views", as this will show you what the pilot who saved the film was looking at.  Also, turn on Icons and Trails.

3) As you watch the film (or in your second viewing of it) PAUSE THE FILM a few seconds after each attack pass.  Switch to Fixed view and move the sliders around until you can see the trails.  Notice the flight path of both attacker and defender.  This will help you visualise what the defense breaks look like in 3D space.

4) While pausing after each attack run, also note the speed and altitude difference between attacker and defender.  What you should notice is that after each subsequent pass, the attacker has slightly less of an energy advantage compared with previous attacks.  As the defender, this is what you are trying to accomplish --  when the attacker has less and less energy advantage to work with, it may open up opportunities to get more aggressive in your reversal attempts.

5) Lastly, watch the film from the attacker's point of view.  This will give you another insight into the fight.  This is a little trickier however, as the views are not saved for the attacker, so you will have to manipulate the views yourself.

The second film is a short clip showing a Barrel Roll Defense and snap-shot.  It is of me being surprised/bounced by a P-51 (I think I was looking at the map to navigate our flight out of hostile territory when I got bounced).  I perform a quick Barrel Roll Defense (break turn left and barrel roll over the top) and the attacker in this case does not roll away from my BRD, passes below me and into my guns for a quick snap-shot.

Hope this information helps!

<S>
« Last Edit: May 29, 2016, 08:38:23 PM by Kingpin »
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Offline TXDELTA

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Re: Defensive maneuvers against the dive
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2016, 07:40:35 PM »
Thanks Kingpin! I will definitely look into this.  :salute

Offline BuckShot

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Re: Defensive maneuvers against the dive
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2016, 08:39:05 AM »
You shot the rudder off my f4f last night TX!
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Offline Puma44

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Re: Defensive maneuvers against the dive
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2016, 12:29:08 PM »
I've posted a couple AH films here in the Films and Screenshots section of the forum which you can watch and study (read some notes below first): http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,379560.0.html

The first film, called "190D9 dodging", was posted by MtnMan a while back in a thread talking about defensive maneuvers.  In this film, MtnMan is in a lower, slower Corsair and defeats multiple attacks made by a BnZing 190.

It is a good example of several of the things mentioned above.  As you watch the film look for the following:  rolling your lift vector into the attacker, making a slightly nose low break turn back into the attacker, tightening the break turn as they close, rolling to point your 3/9 line at the attacker at the point of overshoot, pulling into the vertical to stay out of plane and defeat their shot attempt, then rolling back into the attacker to attempt a reversal.

This film is also an excellent example of what to do if the attacking BnZ fighter DOESN'T fall for the Barrel Roll Defense (doesn't try to follow you through your break turn, doesn't dump his E and doesn't pass below you during your reversal attempt).  The BRD will not always work if the attacker maintains speed, rolls away from your reversal turn, doesn't pass under you, and goes vertical to maintain his energy advantage.  You will see this repeatedly in this film. The attacker doesn't make the mistake of falling for the Barrel Roll Defense reversal and doesn't give MtnMan a shot -- however MtnMan defeats all his attacks and survives the encounter.

When that happens, it might take several defensive merges before the energy difference is small enough to get more aggressive on your reversal attempts.  If the attacker never dumps some E to pull lead for a shot, he can continually reset but he will also have a hard time killing you.  This can often result in a protracted stalemate.  As the defender, one thing to consider is that if the attacker never makes a mistake or never fully commits, you can be defending for a while -- plan accordingly and perhaps make your post-merge extensions in the direction of a friendly base or toward friendly fighters so that the attacker has to get impatient or run the risk of getting into a bad position himself. 

A few tips on watching this film and using the film viewer:

1) Initially use External view mode -- the rear view in the Corsair is not good from the default position, so you will have a much better perspective from external view.  You can always go back and watch it from cockpit view once you have a good idea what the maneuvers are that he is making.

2) Select "Use recorded views", as this will show you what the pilot who saved the film was looking at.  Also, turn on Icons and Trails.

3) As you watch the film (or in your second viewing of it) PAUSE THE FILM a few seconds after each attack pass.  Switch to Fixed view and move the sliders around until you can see the trails.  Notice the flight path of both attacker and defender.  This will help you visualise what the defense breaks look like in 3D space.

4) While pausing after each attack run, also note the speed and altitude difference between attacker and defender.  What you should notice is that after each subsequent pass, the attacker has slightly less of an energy advantage compared with previous attacks.  As the defender, this is what you are trying to accomplish --  when the attacker has less and less energy advantage to work with, it may open up opportunities to get more aggressive in your reversal attempts.

5) Lastly, watch the film from the attacker's point of view.  This will give you another insight into the fight.  This is a little trickier however, as the views are not saved for the attacker, so you will have to manipulate the views yourself.

The second film is a short clip showing a Barrel Roll Defense and snap-shot.  It is of me being surprised/bounced by a P-51 (I think I was looking at the map to navigate our flight out of hostile territory when I got bounced).  I perform a quick Barrel Roll Defense (break turn left and barrel roll over the top) and the attacker in this case does not roll away from my BRD, passes below me and into my guns for a quick snap-shot.

Hope this information helps!

<S>

When you say roll to point your 3/9 line at him on the overshoot, how does that apply to the many directions his lift vector could be pointed?



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