Defensive maneuvers against the dive

[Kingpin]

TXDELTA,

I'll try and make it in before 9 central, but 9 is about as early as I can normally make it.  If this is too late maybe we can setup a better time, would probably like to set aside approximately an hour of training time.  SIK1 and Kingpin if you can make this send me a PM so we can coordinate.

<S>
BigRat

I can make it by 8 central and stick around for at least an hour or so.

[Big Rat]

I'm going to try and sneak in earlier, thanks for the help. 

 
BigRat

[Traveler]

Is this what you are talking about:
You at 11K and slow  with a 109G2 at 18K , fast, licking his lips, Lunch Time
 

I myself continue  to climb, even as I see the 109 go nose down, I attempt to cut our separation , but as he goes nose down, I go nose down, cut power  and continue to slow down.  I want my speed to be as close to half his attacking dive speed.  All the time I’m working to keep him in my Six.

As the 109  almost doubled his speed, cut his alt advantage in half and is continuing to dive, his speed will be over 500MPH, I’ve cut my speed to 169 miles per hour, but I’m presenting a profile of an easy pick. Nose low, trying to dive away , when I’m actually trying to maintain some alt and slow my aircraft.


As he closes to about 2K I allow my speed to increase up, I’m diving for real now, full power, nose down, in a hard right turn, I started to turn to the right when the 109 was 1.5K off my Six,   He closed that gap very very quickly.  He’s firing his guns for all he is worth, but can’t match my turn radius.  He zooms back up  to his perch to think things over.

    

I’ve moved my fight lower, his 109 zoom only gave him 10K, remember he started at 18K.  My speed is up  and I start again, trading speed for alt, working to place him at my Six.
His second dive looks a lot like the first.  I match his nose down with reduced power until he is 1.5 to 2.0K out, go full power, nose down , hard right turn.
 

I’ve taken the fight lower, we are down in the mud and here is where I will remain.   I’m about half his speed , he can’t match my turn, he begins his zooms.

    
His zoom takes him back up but he only manages 8.2 K, just short of his last perch at about 10K.  I continue to slow , add flaps , I don’t have to wait long, he’s reasoned that his problem was his speed and starts to dive on my six. 
    
Again I try for half his speed, with flaps out and a hard right turn, he misses , however, this time I pull  up, climb, barrel role to my left.  I’m given a nice view of his six, I close the distance of 600 feet and kill the 109G2.  He had both  the alt and speed advantage at the start.

The entire fight took 6 and a half minutes.  I'm also the worst fighter pilot in the history of Aces High.

 

   

[TXDELTA]

Good read Traveler!     

[Big Rat]

Traveler,

I don't normally like to negatively critique others on the boards but your tactics are flawed in one major concern.  You are trying to get yourself Co E or better with your opponent when defensive, slowing down and diving to purposely give up E and alt will get you killed to an experienced stick every time .  The G2 died because he gave up his advantage, not because of your tactics. The break turn with the BRD, once he tries to saddle is the proper move once he's tries for this, but he blew most of his advantage to even try to saddle.  You never mentioned what you were flying and what was the offset to your aircraft except alt.  Same direction 7k over your head?, heading opposite direction?,  2.5k out 7k above? etc.  All of these are critical in the first moves.   If there was any offset, he would have to turn at least some to try and dive on you from the six, which case he's burning some speed.  Or if he was far enough away a simple gradual turn into him to make him burn speed and alt for position the entire time you could be accelerating or in a slow climb (enough to maintain a good corner speed) to try and get Co-E.  Also why would you go full power nose low for a break turn to avoid a shot?.  You just gave up alt while increasing speed, which made your turning radius larger, this only helps if you got yourself way slow for a good turn speed to begin with.  If he was coming in with that much smash and you kept track of your climb speed you should have easily been able to turn inside of him without giving up all that alt, some to get a good corner speed yes, but lots, no.  Remember once you run out of alt you run out of a lot of options, your only choices are left and right and slow climb.  Run out of alt and speed, you got yourself in a bad position.

TXDELTA,

Think back to the fights between me and Sik1, notice how if I stayed real aggressive from my perch Sik1 got co-E with me fairly quickly and blew very little alt through the entire fight.  To the point we would end up in a rolling scissors in a fairly even match.  Alt. is options, don't give up your options without fighting for them.  Patience is one of your greatest assets when on defense, or offense for that matter.  Traveler showed patience in his fight for the right time and right way to reverse, his opponent lost his and got killed for it.

 
BigRat       

[Traveler]

Traveler,

I don't normally like to negatively critique others on the boards but your tactics are flawed in one major concern.  You are trying to get yourself Co E or better with your opponent when defensive, slowing down and diving to purposely give up E and alt will get you killed to an experienced stick every time .  The G2 died because he gave up his advantage, not because of your tactics. The break turn with the BRD, once he tries to saddle is the proper move once he's tries for this, but he blew most of his advantage to even try to saddle.  You never mentioned what you were flying and what was the offset to your aircraft except alt.  Same direction 7k over your head?, heading opposite direction?,  2.5k out 7k above? etc.  All of these are critical in the first moves.   If there was any offset, he would have to turn at least some to try and dive on you from the six, which case he's burning some speed.  Or if he was far enough away a simple gradual turn into him to make him burn speed and alt for position the entire time you could be accelerating or in a slow climb (enough to maintain a good corner speed) to try and get Co-E.  Also why would you go full power nose low for a break turn to avoid a shot?.  You just gave up alt while increasing speed, which made your turning radius larger, this only helps if you got yourself way slow for a good turn speed to begin with.  If he was coming in with that much smash and you kept track of your climb speed you should have easily been able to turn inside of him without giving up all that alt, some to get a good corner speed yes, but lots, no.  Remember once you run out of alt you run out of a lot of options, your only choices are left and right and slow climb.  Run out of alt and speed, you got yourself in a bad position.

TXDELTA,

Think back to the fights between me and Sik1, notice how if I stayed real aggressive from my perch Sik1 got co-E with me fairly quickly and blew very little alt through the entire fight.  To the point we would end up in a rolling scissors in a fairly even match.  Alt. is options, don't give up your options without fighting for them.  Patience is one of your greatest assets when on defense, or offense for that matter.  Traveler showed patience in his fight for the right time and right way to reverse, his opponent lost his and got killed for it.

 
BigRat     

I was in a P38L, heavy. I'm always in a P38 of some kind.  If you noticed, I told the OP that this is what I do, not that he should do it, and I also stated that I am the worst fighter pilot in Aces High, and have been for the last 15 years or so.  I'm just here to have fun.  But your statement that "when defensive, slowing down and diving to purposely give up E and alt will get you killed to an experienced stick every time ." is just not true and I have the films and AH videos to back my claims. Also "The G2 died because he gave up his advantage, not because of your tactics."  You missed the point, my tactic was to get him to give up his advantage.   Which he did. So saying my tactic was wrong, is just incorrect.  I had a very nice long dog fight, some six and a half minutes long and it was fun. you can visit our squad pages, the films and videos are there, lots to look at and enjoy, the link is in my signature.

I think you can see it here: http://www.mediafire.com/download/n5bb44gztk66mm9/BobCat81.ahf

[Big Rat]

Traveler,

Let me rephrase the "your tactic was wrong" to say if your goal was to bait him into a bad position, your tactic worked.  But I'll stick with the experienced stick would not have been baited so easily, so you can't count on this working every time.   I teach on the assumption that you will only be fighting good sticks, eg. mistakes are forced, rather then made with poor decisions.  As we all know and have done, poor decisions have killed us more times, then probably poor flying, or better stick.  But can't count on poor decisions of the other guy to keep us alive.  Thus the reason I teach the tactics that I do, which keep your options high and your ability to fight and survive also high. I'm glad you had a fun fight and having fun is the important part, otherwise we wouldn't keep coming back  . 

 
BigRat

[Traveler]

Traveler,

Let me rephrase the "your tactic was wrong" to say if your goal was to bait him into a bad position, your tactic worked.  But I'll stick with the experienced stick would not have been baited so easily, so you can't count on this working every time.   I teach on the assumption that you will only be fighting good sticks, eg. mistakes are forced, rather then made with poor decisions.  As we all know and have done, poor decisions have killed us more times, then probably poor flying, or better stick.  But can't count on poor decisions of the other guy to keep us alive.  Thus the reason I teach the tactics that I do, which keep your options high and your ability to fight and survive also high. I'm glad you had a fun fight and having fun is the important part, otherwise we wouldn't keep coming back  . 

 
BigRat

I reread this entire thread again.  There are at least four other posters that offered up very similar advice as I did, yet you only took exception to my post, it may be my PTSD but I tend to take except to that.   

Let’s look at the OP’s original request:

Whenever i get into an engagement it always seems as though I don't have the alt advantage and the enemy is always diving on top and I quickly panic because I have no idea how to counter it! Most of the time it is usually an f4u, jug, or p38 diving in and than I lose it and get cut down  . Trying not to be a bug but what are some techniques or maneuvers  that I can work on  for manuevering against this?

What I noticed about his post was his  use of some key words, like , panic, techniques and maneuvers, what I thought he was asking for was a Plan.  That is what I offered him, your right, it might not work, might get him shot down, but at least he won’t just sit there fat, dumb and happy, expecting to be shot down.  What I told him is what I do.  My plan, not just to do a break turn, but my technique of slowing to half speed, when to reduce power and when to add power, about when to break turn, how far out do you let him close the distance before I turn .    what airspeeds to use and when.  You offered to let him ride along with you, that’s very nice, however, in AH2 the person riding along , his cockpit does not show functioning instruments.  So he won’t know what airspeed or  flap setting or anything else, the sight picture may  or may not help due to lag.  But you will be able to impress him with your aviation skill as you squad pretend to be the nme.

[FLS]

It's always good to get another point of view.   

[Bushmills]

Simply dive straight towards the ground i mean AS STEEP as you can and yank back on your joystick as hard as you can JUST before you hit the ground then watch the poor sap chasing you go straight into the ground BOOM no more bad guy 

[Kingpin]

There are at least four other posters that offered up very similar advice as I did, yet you only took exception to my post

Traveler,

Nobody else here suggested diving and giving up 5,000 feet of altitude per defensive maneuver (which is what your suggestion and example film shows).  That is what is different about your post and what BigRat is trying to point out to you.

How exactly do you know you are "half speed" to your attacker and why is that important?

Why give up 5K in alt, when an overshoot can be achieved without giving that up?

What do you do after you have given up all your alt and now have no airspace to dive out (as you were after two defensive moves in the film)?

What do you do when the attacker simply uses lag pursuit to stay behind you once you are reduced throttle, flaps out, barely above 100mph and on the deck?

BigRat is trying to help you.  Instead of taking it personally, trying to defend your method and going so far as to insult him, you might try re-reading the thread in an effort understand what makes your suggestion different (and, yes, "flawed") compared to the other methods discussed and suggested here.

<S>

[DmonSlyr]

Whenever i get into an engagement it always seems as though I don't have the alt advantage and the enemy is always diving on top and I quickly panic because I have no idea how to counter it! Most of the time it is usually an f4u, jug, or p38 diving in and than I lose it and get cut down  . Trying not to be a bug but what are some techniques or maneuvers  that I can work on  for manuevering against this?
 

 

Check out the video I have posted in the films and screenshots. It's a long BnZ fight where I had to use every defense maneuver in the book. I hope this maybe help you get an idea of how to defend against BnZers and higher planes diving on you.

[Traveler]

Traveler,

Nobody else here suggested diving and giving up 5,000 feet of altitude per defensive maneuver (which is what your suggestion and example film shows).  That is what is different about your post and what BigRat is trying to point out to you.

I said similar, not exactly what I suggested, but similar enough.

How exactly do you know you are "half speed" to your attacker and why is that important?

It’s my best guess.

Why give up 5K in alt, when an overshoot can be achieved without giving that up?

Why not, who said you can’t give up Alt ?   if the result of my tactic is the other guy is dead, what’s wrong with it? 

What do you do after you have given up all your alt and now have no airspace to dive out (as you were after two defensive moves in the film)?

I don’t know, as I said, I suck at this, but again, I didn’t have to do anything as the nme was dead.   If I had spotted another nme up high I would have done the same thing to him.

What do you do when the attacker simply uses lag pursuit to stay behind you once you are reduced throttle, flaps out, barely above 100mph and on the deck?

I don’t know, ask BigRat, that wasn’t the question the OP was asking, I answered the OP’s question and presented a film of my doing just that, does it always work, of course not, but when I’m jumped by a guy with Alt and E, at least I have a plan, that’s what I believe that the OP was looking for.  OH, wait,  I had to look up Lag Pursuit, I’ed Barrel roll and reverse on him and kill him too.

BigRat is trying to help you.  Instead of taking it personally, trying to defend your method and going so far as to insult him, you might try re-reading the thread in an effort understand what makes your suggestion different (and, yes, "flawed") compared to the other methods discussed and suggested here.

I didn’t ask for his help, the OP did and again Kingpin, if it worked, if it did exactly as I planned it would , it’s not flawed.

[Kingpin]

Kingpin, if it worked, if it did exactly as I planned it would , it’s not flawed.

Just because something works once does not make it a valid method.  If I told you that I once hit a baseball by swinging with my eyes closed, that would not make batting with your eyes closed a valid method -- it would be a flawed method.  A better approach would be to keep your eyes open while trying to hit a baseball.  Likewise, a better approach to defensive fighting is to keep as much energy (altitude) as you can and only give it up when you need to.

who said you can’t give up Alt ?   if the result of my tactic is the other guy is dead, what’s wrong with it?

Nobody said you can't give up alt, but rather that you shouldn't give up so much alt unnecessarily.  Altitude (potential energy) in an air combat environment is life -- it gives you options that you don't have once you give it up.  Again, the flaw in your approach was only that you gave up 10,000 feet of altitude to avoid 2 passes from a single attacker.  If you don't understand why that might be flawed, perhaps it might be a good topic for another thread.  Feel free to ask.

I watched your film 3 times -- twice from your perspective and once from the attacker's perspective, pausing it several times to look at the E-states and geometry of the fight.  After careful analysis, I can confidently tell you that the reason you won that fight was not due to your tactic of diving -- it was because the attacker made several mistakes much later, after it became a turning fight on the deck and you won the turning fight.  Just as BigRat said, against a better pilot, that tactic is going to get you (and others who try to use it) killed more often than not.  It also puts you in a bad spot for the next enemy who wanders along.

Please bear in mind that this is the Training Forum, not the General Forum.  There is an effort (if not an obligation) to keep information here as accurate and as helpful as possible.  If a trainer comments on or corrects something you say here, it is not meant as an attack on you personally.  It is an effort to help everyone: you, the OP and anyone else who reads the thread.  You may not accept the feedback, but it is important that others see it.

I appreciate you contributing to the conversation and especially taking the time to link to an AH Film (I wish more players would post AH films -- not YouTube videos -- as examples supporting their points.)  Many of the other points you made in your post were great, such as pointing out how the attacker had less altitude (energy) after each attack -- you seem to get why that is important for him as the attacker, but not for you as the defender.

Hope this feedback helps!

<S>

[Kingpin]

Dup post deleted.