Defensive maneuvers against the dive

[Traveler]

This is my last response, as it’s reached the point of being absolutely absurd.
You did analysis , are you kidding me? 
Your analysis is flawed and here is why, you say you watched the AH film three times

Nobody said you can't give up alt, but rather that you shouldn't give up so much alt unnecessarily.  Altitude (potential energy) in an air combat environment is life -- it gives you options that you don't have once you give it up.  Again, the flaw in your approach was only that you gave up 10,000 feet of altitude to avoid 2 passes from a single attacker.

You  have better watch the file again, the attacker made three passes, one from 18K one from 10K and the third form 8K, where he attempted a lag pursuit  and ended up      dead from my flawed tactic.
I’m done here.

[DmonSlyr]

Y'all should check out the defense films I've posted in the "film's and screenshot" forum. They give a good idea on some of the manuevers that you can work on to beat  diving planes on your 6.

[Kingpin]

Y'all should check out the defense films I've posted in the "film's and screenshot" forum. They give a good idea on some of the manuevers that you can work on to beat  diving planes on your 6.

Yes, excellent examples Vio!  I particularly like this one against the Spit 8: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,379683.0.html

In the second half of that film (where you finally reverse him and get a pilot wound on him) this is a really nice example of not needing to be considerably slower than the opponent to force an overshoot.  You simply need to stay "out of plane" with him.  You continue to roll your lift vector out of sync with his, then roll it back into and behind him forcing the overshoot and winning the brief tight rolling scissors.  It's really a great example of what Puma and I were discussing earlier in this thread.

Another thing I like about BOTH the films you posted, is that there are multiple cons at the beginning, but you make your break turns and extensions specifically away from the second con, choosing a direction that keeps both enemy aircraft on your long six.  This keeps you out of a 2v1 situation and allows you to work against a single con.  This shows some good thinking and situational awareness.  It is easy to get so focussed on defense against one attacker that you lose focus on the bigger picture, in this case extending out of the possible 2v1 or 3v1 situation.  There's a great lesson in this: that situational awareness is as important as maneuvering, so that you can choose your maneuvers with a purpose -- in this case, choosing the direction of your maneuvers such that they move you away from the second enemy.  Hopefully, that was all intentional! 

Good stuff!  Thanks for posting those films, Vio!  (And for changing the subject  )

<S>

[LCADolby]

Having read and watched Traveler, I can honestly say that I would not recommend that as a defensive manoeuvre because it relies on mistakes of the attacker. 

[FLS]

Mistakes are normal in fights. Most fights are won by the pilot making fewer mistakes. No mistakes is often a draw.

If TXDelta learned anything from Traveler's post then he's better off than he was. 

He can also learn not to blow his energy unless it gets him the kill, in which case it's a good move. 

[DmonSlyr]

Yes, excellent examples Vio!  I particularly like this one against the Spit 8: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,379683.0.html

In the second half of that film (where you finally reverse him and get a pilot wound on him) this is a really nice example of not needing to be considerably slower than the opponent to force an overshoot.  You simply need to stay "out of plane" with him.  You continue to roll your lift vector out of sync with his, then roll it back into and behind him forcing the overshoot and winning the brief tight rolling scissors.  It's really a great example of what Puma and I were discussing earlier in this thread.

Another thing I like about BOTH the films you posted, is that there are multiple cons at the beginning, but you make your break turns and extensions specifically away from the second con, choosing a direction that keeps both enemy aircraft on your long six.  This keeps you out of a 2v1 situation and allows you to work against a single con.  This shows some good thinking and situational awareness.  It is easy to get so focussed on defense against one attacker that you lose focus on the bigger picture, in this case extending out of the possible 2v1 or 3v1 situation.  There's a great lesson in this: that situational awareness is as important as maneuvering, so that you can choose your maneuvers with a purpose -- in this case, choosing the direction of your maneuvers such that they move you away from the second enemy.  Hopefully, that was all intentional! 

Good stuff!  Thanks for posting those films, Vio!  (And for changing the subject  )

<S>

Thank you Kingpin. This spit fight was one of my favorite films.

These types of films really helped me to learn situations. Also, great eye on the SA position. That's something I utilize very often in FSOs when the enemy is pouncing on us. Drag them out and get them away from friendlies.

My goal is to show people that defensive maneuvers do work, they make the fights exciting, you can get more kills, and you can find other alternatives to flying the fastest planes and hitting X key when someone jumps on your 6.

I appreciate the comments.

Note: my aim is not of subject hehehe

[Puma44]

Having read and watched Traveler, I can honestly say that I would not recommend that as a defensive manoeuvre because it relies on mistakes of the attacker. 

More often than not, the first one to make a mistake loses the potential advantage and thus, the fight.

[FishBait]

This is my last response, as it’s reached the point of being absolutely absurd.
You did analysis , are you kidding me? 
Your analysis is flawed and here is why, you say you watched the AH film three times
 You  have better watch the file again, the attacker made three passes, one from 18K one from 10K and the third form 8K, where he attempted a lag pursuit  and ended up      dead from my flawed tactic.
I’m done here.

I wish you wouldn't feel this way, Traveler. From an outsider's perspective it seems everyone offering (constructive) critique of your tactics has been respectful and courteous. They only wish to make you better. Allowing yourself to become upset over this is only really harming you in the end.

I'm positive you did a lot 'right' in that fight, and you have good reason to be proud of your performance. The improvements that others are suggesting does not take anything away from that. You did good but you can do better - much better - if you would simply entertain the ideas others are putting forward.

I hate to belabor the point, but I'm with everyone else... against a better opponent, your tactics would likely not have worked, and even if they did (as they did in your case), you're still leaving yourself in a very vulnerable state in the MA where 1-to-infinity cons could be right around the corner. Of course, if you're just in it for the fight and are OK with working from severe disadvantage this won't concern you. But most people prefer to land their hard-won kills instead of being gang-picked just shy of the runway.

If you ever want to go to the TA to work on this scenario (or others), I think it would be a lot of fun & a good learning experience for us both. I'll go at you with a 109 as long as you give me one or two other tries with a plane I'm used to flying! That way we'll likely both land some kills while hopefully stepping up our collective game.

[FishBait]

Yes, excellent examples Vio!  I particularly like this one against the Spit 8: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,379683.0.html

In the second half of that film (where you finally reverse him and get a pilot wound on him) this is a really nice example of not needing to be considerably slower than the opponent to force an overshoot.  You simply need to stay "out of plane" with him.  You continue to roll your lift vector out of sync with his, then roll it back into and behind him forcing the overshoot and winning the brief tight rolling scissors.  It's really a great example of what Puma and I were discussing earlier in this thread.

Another thing I like about BOTH the films you posted, is that there are multiple cons at the beginning, but you make your break turns and extensions specifically away from the second con, choosing a direction that keeps both enemy aircraft on your long six.  This keeps you out of a 2v1 situation and allows you to work against a single con.  This shows some good thinking and situational awareness.  It is easy to get so focussed on defense against one attacker that you lose focus on the bigger picture, in this case extending out of the possible 2v1 or 3v1 situation.  There's a great lesson in this: that situational awareness is as important as maneuvering, so that you can choose your maneuvers with a purpose -- in this case, choosing the direction of your maneuvers such that they move you away from the second enemy.  Hopefully, that was all intentional! 

Good stuff!  Thanks for posting those films, Vio!  (And for changing the subject  )

<S>

Your description of the video is GOOD STUFF! :

[TequilaChaser]

This has been a pretty good thread to read and watch

I would however like to point out the proven fact that "ride alongs" for a student in the TA with a trainer working/flying against another trainer is completely different than what one normally sees in a "ride along" in the MA...

In the TA, during "ride alongs" , the trainers are instructing and teaching why - why not - when - where... in regards to SA , E management, Lift vector, AOA , separation, etc ad infinium ....

So, suggestions of getting with the AH Training staff in the TA, is spot on, correct and encouraged for helping a student learning... to "GET IT" more rapidly from being taught while visualizing the instruction by the trainers at the same time


Hope this helps

TC