Author Topic: Top E Planes (non-perky)  (Read 11725 times)

Offline shift8

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Re: Top E Planes (non-perky)
« Reply #60 on: July 17, 2016, 12:41:30 PM »
Hi Shift, have you done any comparitive flight testing, especially flat turning with the Spit14 versus the 16 say? If you have and filmed it I'd love to see the results. While I agree on paper the 14 looks like a boss in practice for me at least just doesn't seem to translate. I have trouble turning it below corner speed, the pitch seems closely coupled to the yaw contibuting to the nose  bounce so your boresight traces an elipse. Then there's the nasty uncommunicative nose-high-when-slow departure which leads to a very nast spin. Discounts the kind of tailstanding reversal antics the K-4 boys get away with, you just can't risk it in combat in the 14.

In testing I've even entered this departure engine off, so I've discounted the torque. My feeling (subjective feeling) is that the CofG is modelled incorrectly - too far aft. Not even the Spit historians I've asked know of any evidence of these handling issues in real life.

Also there's the WEP. Five minutes which is often one decent fight, after that rather feels like an overly-heavy Spit8 with that hobgoblin from the Twilight Zone fiddling with your surfaces. Very bad news because by then three LA7s have usually shown up  :rofl

Yeah Ive compared the 14 and the 16. The 16 has a sixteen second turn, the 14 is closer to 16.5. This is for flat sea level turns with max wep. I cant say I have run into any of those issues when I fly the 14. To me it feels exactly like a faster 16 with a worse roll rate. In my experience alot of people who prefer the 16 like it due to its roll rate, since that makes it a much easier plane to furball in. I am usually in the Mustang in the MA, but I switch to the 14 which I'm in am impatient mood.   I find that you can stay right with a 109 in any kind of fight with any contemporary spit. In fact I generally see the 109 as being easy meat when flying a spit. Especially at altitude. I dont have any footage of me in a Spit 14 unfortunately.

As for La's, I tend to stay on the periphery of the fight until the tactical situation permits otherwise. Any engagement bigger than 4 v 4 is more or less a crap shoot, unless you have a big altitude disparity you can exploit. Aside from that, once you get a big dogfight going it is usually decided solely by the accidental positioning of x fighter behing y fighter, and the incidental timing of reinforcements.  This is one of the reasons I like the 14. If you keep fast, you can skirt the battle space and engage enemy fighters when the timing is right. In a 16 you can much more easily get caught in a no-win situation.

Offline Krupinski

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Re: Top E Planes (non-perky)
« Reply #61 on: July 17, 2016, 01:06:09 PM »
A few months ago I flew the Spit14 quite a bit.. the thing is a monster. It'll make K4's and La7's cry in the vertical, and has far better guns for range. There's no need to turn when your plane performs like a rocket ship & has the ability to hit accurately up to 600m.  :airplane:

Offline nrshida

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Re: Top E Planes (non-perky)
« Reply #62 on: July 17, 2016, 01:07:54 PM »
What kind of stick do you use Shift, is it an MS Sidewinder? Strange that we have such a polar experience of the same plane. Must depend a lot on fighting style and tactics a lot too. Do you typically ever get slower than sustained turn speed? Your flat turning, what fuel loads are those times for?

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Offline FLOOB

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Re: Top E Planes (non-perky)
« Reply #63 on: July 17, 2016, 01:21:50 PM »
According to that one chart which I don't remember where to find. The spit14 clean has a larger sustained turn radius than a 109g6 with drop tank in aces high. No where near the turning circle as other spits in AH.
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Offline GScholz

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Re: Top E Planes (non-perky)
« Reply #64 on: July 17, 2016, 01:22:10 PM »
Since the spitfire 1 came into service 1 month after the A6M2, shouldn't they be compared as well as the A6M3 vs the spitfire IX?

Short answer: No... Just no.

Long answer: The Spitfire Mk I entered service in August 1938, two years before the Zeke, with more than 300 built before the war started in 1939. The Spitfire Mk V entered service in January 1941. About the same time the A6M2 Type 0 Model 21 entered production. The A6M2 Type 0 Model 11 entered service in July 1940 and saw combat in China in August... Or about in the middle of the Battle of Britain. But we're talking about few dozen aircraft total in 1940. After producing 65 Model 11s they switched to the Model 21 and by the end of 1941 they had made just over 400 of them. Barely enough to equip all their carrier squadrons before the attack on Pearl Harbor.

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Offline FLOOB

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Re: Top E Planes (non-perky)
« Reply #65 on: July 17, 2016, 01:32:08 PM »
It was Mosq list that he made with badboy's bootstrap program. I tested the sustained turn rate and circle on the spit14 with bootstrap and got practically the same numbers as mosq did. Spit14 turn radius 665 to 670, turn rate 21 to 22. Worse than the tempest even.
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Offline FLS

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Re: Top E Planes (non-perky)
« Reply #66 on: July 17, 2016, 01:53:37 PM »
You don't need your best sustained turn to compare turn rates, you can compare max radial g at a given speed. It won't tell you the radius and rate without computation but it will tell you which one turns faster and it's a much quicker and easier test.

We don't have turn rate or tun radius gauges in Aces High but we do have speed and accelerometer (radial g) gauges. 
« Last Edit: July 17, 2016, 03:57:00 PM by FLS »

Offline nrshida

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Re: Top E Planes (non-perky)
« Reply #67 on: July 17, 2016, 01:55:20 PM »
For rate I just time it against a landmark on a stopwatch. I've always wondered where the radius data came from.

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Offline Lusche

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Re: Top E Planes (non-perky)
« Reply #68 on: July 17, 2016, 02:29:42 PM »
I've always wondered where the radius data came from.

Math  :P
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Top E Planes (non-perky)
« Reply #69 on: July 17, 2016, 02:37:55 PM »
Math  :P

Anything but that

Must be missing something. Obviously degrees per second is just 360 over t. Still none-the-wiser about the diameter covered over the ground.


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Offline FLS

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Re: Top E Planes (non-perky)
« Reply #70 on: July 17, 2016, 02:41:45 PM »
Radius = (true airspeed squared) divided by (radial g multiplied by 32.2)

Edit: True airspeed is in ft/sec
« Last Edit: July 17, 2016, 03:38:34 PM by FLS »

Offline nrshida

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Re: Top E Planes (non-perky)
« Reply #71 on: July 17, 2016, 03:35:40 PM »
Radius = (true airspeed squared) divided by (radial g multiplied by 32.2)

Ah the G, of course. Thank you.

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Offline shift8

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Re: Top E Planes (non-perky)
« Reply #72 on: July 17, 2016, 04:30:59 PM »
What kind of stick do you use Shift, is it an MS Sidewinder? Strange that we have such a polar experience of the same plane. Must depend a lot on fighting style and tactics a lot too. Do you typically ever get slower than sustained turn speed? Your flat turning, what fuel loads are those times for?

The turn times are for each plane with a equal load of fuel in terms of time. Meaning that with that fuel they would be able to fly for about the same time. I use a X-55 Rhino, and before that a Logitech extreme 3d pro. I rarely turn fight unless extending is not an option. There are a few times I get very slow though. One is when stalling out at the top a zoom, or when doing a spiral climb. The other is when engaging in a one-circle geometry fight where radius is paramount, and the slower you get without stalling, the better the radius.

Offline save

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Re: Top E Planes (non-perky)
« Reply #73 on: July 17, 2016, 06:50:48 PM »
spit14 don't like to turn to the left, spit16 does.
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Offline bozon

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Re: Top E Planes (non-perky)
« Reply #74 on: July 18, 2016, 03:12:59 AM »
A spit 14 that start with an advantage can be a very tough opponent, because it is impossible to drain its energy (assuming it has wep). On the other hand, without a head start it is the easiest spit to beat. Very volnerable in left hand turns, or if slowed to a stall.

In a mossie, a high spit 14 spells trouble. A co alt spit 14 is a 1 increment to your kill counter.
I like the 14. Take a a lot of skill to fly it well in a furball.
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