Top E Planes (non-perky)

[save]

So would 24* R4m rockets on all late German planes. More Jets like He162 and Meteors would out-date all prop planes with or without 150 octane.

It is indeed too bad. It would make a # of other planes into monsters as well.

[Zimme83]

Imo Spit 14 can be an awesome plane if not flown like a spit. I Think that its the most common misstake people do, they use it like they use the other spits. Fly it like it was a K-4 instead, just be careful with the WEP.

[shift8]

EXACTLY ... EXACTLY!

If you cant avg. 3+ kills in an LA7, Spit16, 109k4 etc. you are doing something wrong (assuming you are flying when there are planes to shoot down).  That is not fun to me.  These are Tie fighters, i.e. planes that excel exponentially over the opponents planes.

Thus this message topic is functionally:  getting the most out of non-perky rides.  Non-perky in this context means basically average planes.

Granted if you are polarized on score you might need to fly perky planes.  I'm just polarized on shooting down red things and helping my team.  If I can do it in average planes it is more fun to me.

To each his own.  Rock on! 

"Unperky" is sort of impossible to quantify. It isnt possible to define a average class of aircraft because you are essentially implying we disregard anything that is extremely good that isn't a true perk plane. But once you do that, the next tier of planes immediately becomes "perky" relative to everything else. Essentially there is always going to be a set of planes the exhibit "perky" characteristics relative to the rest of the list. All we would really accomplish by doing this would be eventually narrowing everything down to whatever the worst plane in the game is.

To gain some level of objectivity to the list, you may as well limit the conversation to the mid war area planes.

[Slade]

you may as well limit the conversation to the mid war area planes.

@shift8 I think you are over thinking this.  If it helps in having posts then sure limit it to midwar planes.

OR

All perk planes including these non-perked planes: LA5, LA7, Spit16, Spit14, Spit8 and BF109 k4.

Given that list @shift8 can you share which planes you feel have the best E retention in your experience?

Thanks. 

[Lusche]

If you cant avg. 3+ kills in an LA7, Spit16, 109k4 etc. you are doing something wrong

While this is technically true, there is only a small group of players which can actually pull that off, even in those planes mentioned. The average player struggles to get a 1.0k/d, no matter what plane he's flying in.

Yes, the tater takes some skill, but otherwise it is at the top of the "easiest planes to be successful in". Energy management in the K4 means "dont build too much of it".

I'd disagree, based on my own experience as a noob. Getting successful in the 109K was so much more difficult than in the La-7 or even the 190D.  Granted, the 190D is far more limited in it's combat capabilities, but when using it as a kind of 'one trick pony' even a newer player can get relatively successful in it (though his style may offend his opponents )

The big problems for any average (or worse) players are limited visibility due to the cockpit bars (TrackIR may help with that), the already mentioned taters ballistics and the high speed lockup.
I remember quite well stepping back from the 109K and flying LA-7/190D (and later Ki-84 and Spit 8 and then the Tempest). Only after a year (or two? have to look it up) I was ready to score in the 109K.

But you Sir, are a much about average player (yes, you really are. The level of 'average' is constantly being overestimated on the BBS ). For someone like you the 109K is a 'super' plane indeed. 

[Slade]

The big problems for any average (or worse) players are limited visibility due to the cockpit bar

Lusche great point you hit on. 

I tend to fly the P-47-d25 over the d11 because of the increased visibility even though the d11 has some performance advantages.  Same with other plane sets.

I think some pilots dont factor this in.  I always felt with pilots being equal - better visibility made up (a little bit) for loss of: turn radius, climb rate etc.  Loss of viz and correspondingly SA, can be a killer!

Though check-sixes hlp, if one puts them self in an aperture highly conducive to death (via loss of SA or just plain dumb decisions) then it is no surprise when it arrives.

[DmonSlyr]

Lusche great point you hit on. 

I tend to fly the P-47-d25 over the d11 because of the increased visibility even though the d11 has some performance advantages.  Same with other plane sets.

I think some pilots dont factor this in.  I always felt with pilots being equal - better visibility made up (a little bit) for loss of: turn radius, climb rate etc.  Loss of viz and correspondingly SA, can be a killer!

Though check-sixes hlp, if one puts them self in an aperture highly conducive to death (via loss of SA or just plain dumb decisions) then it is no surprise when it arrives.

I can tell you that missing shots is the single most important reason why people don't get as many kills as they want. Missing shots carries on the fight, gives your opponent more chances to counter, makes you lose more E, and gets you picked more often than not. Missing shots is what kills the majority of players in this game. I actually use to the K4s bars to help me set up shots. But that's why the K4 isn't as easy as people think. They miss all their shots, don't know how to set up crossing shots, they lose all their E and position trying to make the shot, then they get picked. I use the G14 a lot just so I can get easier shots. Sometimes it doesn't matter how great of a plane you have. If you can't aim it, it's useless.

Lusche also mentioned the dive performance on the 109s and K4. It can't go faster than 490 without locking up, this creates a huge amount of loss of E that the plane could have gained. You actually have to slow down and use the throttle to control the plane so you can make the shot and still get away from the enemies watching you. It's not a BnZ style plane. While the plane does have a great engine and can turn fairly well. It's a more difficult plane because you have to know how the set up shots and utilitize your throttle to not lock up. 

[shift8]

@shift8 I think you are over thinking this.  If it helps in having posts then sure limit it to midwar planes.

OR

All perk planes including these non-perked planes: LA5, LA7, Spit16, Spit14, Spit8 and BF109 k4.

Given that list @shift8 can you share which planes you feel have the best E retention in your experience?

Thanks. 

My point was that the conversation will always be moot with the definition of "perky", since there is no such thing. A plane is either perked or it isn't. Perky is a subjective description only known to you.

But since you have spelled out which planes you want removed (the spit 16, La5, and Spit 8 being rather odd choices to omit....)....

All planes have more or less the same E "retention," for the reason I spelled out quite awhile ago. I think it needs to be defined what exactly "retention" is, because many people here are posting based on entirely different metrics.

Rentention is the capacity of the plane to maintain speed in a constant maneuver at a constant G. There are 3 main applications to this. The first is when you perform a single move and then hold a straight line. In this case the E retention of all fighters is for all intensive purposes the same, although some fighters may feel better due to other characteristics like control authority when slow. The second application is holding speed in any series of, or constant application of, G. In this case the planes that will do this the best are objectively the ones with better power to weight. So look for the planes with the best climb rates, period. The last application is holding speed in a straight line in level flight either out of a dive or when the power is shut off from a equal speed. In this case the planes with the most mass and least drag win.

Off the of my head, the 109G-14 would have the best E retention under constant G for the planes that are allowed. I am sure I have forgotten some plane though.

[DmonSlyr]

So look for the planes with the best climb rates, period.

This is the statement that you most need to pay attention to. Accept I'd change it to zoom climb. That's why the 190D, P51D, P38, 109K, Spit8, Spit16, Ta152, La7, and Yak3, are all the best E birds for their category, that are non perked.

Off the of my head, the 109G-14 would have the best E retention under constant G for the planes that are allowed. I am sure I have forgotten some plane though.

The K4 is actually  a lot more powerful because of the engine and design, but the G14 can roll inside a K4, generally. 

[shift8]

This is the statement that you most need to pay attention to. Accept I'd change it to zoom climb. That's why the 190D, P51D, P38, 109K, Spit8, Spit16, Ta152, La7, and Yak3, are all the best E birds for their category, that are non perked.

The K4 is actually  a lot more powerful because of the engine and design, but the G14 can roll inside a K4, generally.

He discounted the K4 IIRC, thas why I didnt mention it. Also they have the same climb rate more or less, the K4 is far faster though.


I wouldn't change it to zoom climb really because all planes more or less have the same zoom climb. People seem to think that one plane or the other has significant zoom advantages but this is not the case. I tested this some time ago in AH and other flight sims and always got the same result. If you start two planes at the exact same speed and then pull a constant G until vertical, the planes will stop at more or less the same height. There were small differences between trials, but they were inconsistent and appeared to have more to do with my inability to hold a exactly perfect constant G turn. My theory on why this is is that the heavier planes lose more E during the transition, but retain it better once unloaded going straight up. On the other hand, lighter planes like the K4 or La7 Bleed less E in the transition but have less inertia once unloaded. Either way I found it difficult to detect any meaningful difference in zoom climb on various planes.

Caveat: some planes have much better characteristics at the top of the zoom than others, which may lead to a false impression of actually gaining more height. Extremely light planes like the zero, or super stable planes like the P-38, tend to be very easy to manipulate at the apex of the zoom. This can give them an edge in some circumstances.