Suggestions regarding next Scenario (October, 2016)

[Brooke]

Here is a link to a starting point for the October North Africa Scenario:

http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/201610_TunisiaFeb43/rules.html

People can post suggestions and questions in this topic.

Best regards. <S>!

[LCADolby]

B17s and B26s addition need some thought due to the balance issues with Ju88.
Ju88s were designed to dive bomb, relaxing this rule for the Ju88 would historical options.

(The fighters are yet to be given type in the write up)

[Bruv119]

i've read it where are the spit8 or 9's?   

[Devil 505]

I agree with Dolby regarding the B-17's and 26's.

Jg 77 would still have G-2's at this time. I have not ever seen evidence of any G-6's being deployed to North Africa. 

P-38's and 190's were not common in North Africa - that proportion should be reflected by having these squads being smaller than the average, not larger.

The C.202 will be hard to get pilots to fill and will be ineffective except in the hands of exceptional pilots. I would replace these with another Luft squad in 109F's, which were still being used. The 109F will also help balance the SpitV.

[puller]

I nominate Dolby to lead the C202 squad....

 

[Joker312]

Devil I don't know what you mean by common but according to what I have read the 12th AF had 2 groups of P38's consisting of 5 Squadrons each with a complement of around 25 aircraft. 125 P38's. The 14th flew combat operations starting in Nov 42.

JG2 flew FW190s in Africa. II Group I believe would have had 36 to 64 aircraft assigned depending on supply status and maintenance levels.

Almost 200 combat aircraft is a pretty good showing and there are 3 other types that each side has to use.

As for the squads being a bit larger I am sure the designers had a good reason to add 2 aircraft to those Squads.

[Zoney]

I nominate Dolby to lead the C202 squad....

 

Seconded

[LCADolby]

The C202 is a fantastic fighter; nimble, agile and quick. I once landed 7 kills in one sortie in the MA. Sure I'll lead the C202s.

[puller]

The C202 is a fantastic fighter; nimble, agile and quick. I once landed 7 kills in one sortie in the MA. Sure I'll lead the C202s.

202s are junk...we will be annihilated in them...after a entire scenario in the C205 awhile back I wont even look at either one of them in the hanger....

Fantastic fighter...

In a 202 I wouldn't want to be around any p39s not to mention 38s...such junk...I'm reminded of a FSO where we were in 202s...

109Fs are Cadillac's compared to 202s...

I'm gonna have to change my offline drones to see what happens when 26s are shot at by 202s...26s shake off hizzookas...

[Zoney]

In a 202 I wouldn't want to be around any p39s not to mention 38s...such junk...I'm reminded of a FSO where we were in 202s...

Me too!  It was the most kills I have ever had in an FSO, 6 as I recall.  It's a great fighter.  Not an MA fighter but in this case, it will do pretty well.

[Brooke]

Hello, all.

Some brief comments so far.

For which plane types were there in Feb. 1943 and in what rough proportions, all of that comes from the list of references.  There weren't any Spit 8's or 9's in the 12th AF.  There were 109G-2's and G-6's as opposed to a bunch of 109F's by 1943.  There were lots of P-38's and some 190's (less than 109's, but JG 2 was in 190's as was SKG 10 by 1943).

Regarding bombers, the 26's and 17's have better defense than the Ju 88's, the 25's have worse.  The 25's and 26's don't carry as much ord as 88's, the 17's are about equal.  Overall, my opinion is that it is about a wash or that the allies have a slight advantage in bombers.  Ju 88's are quite decent bombers.  I have flown them more in Scenarios than anyone in AH, including in the Tunisia Scenario in 2009 that had B-25's, B-26's, and B-17's on the allied side and Ju 88's on the axis side.

For balance, the LW has a slightly better fighter set, about an equal ground-attack set, and a slightly worse bomber set.  Given that you never get a perfect balance because we do use different planes on each side of a Scenario, this mix in my opinion is historical and seems OK.

In Scenarios like this one, I can tell you being a bomber pilot a lot, if you get formations, level bombing is much better than divebombing with singletons.  There is the possibility of forced singleton missions, though, if bombers rearm during an hour -- so I will think about glide bombing for singletons.  Ju 88's could do it and probably B-25's did it some in history.  I'm not sure about B-26's, and B-17's almost never did that.  Maybe allowing it for all but B-17's?  Hmm.  Not sure.  Let's ponder.

C.202's were one of the historically important planes in this theater, and they are decent planes, especially considering that the allies have P-40's and P-39's.  They should stay in, as should P-40's, P-39's, A-20's, Bf 110's, and Ju 88's.  C.202's are higher up the popularity tree than Ju 88's, He 111's, Il-2's, Bf 110's, B5N's, Boston III's, and TBM's, and I've flown all of those (and actually Stukas, too) in Scenarios and gotten people to fly them with me.

[Devil 505]

Devil I don't know what you mean by common but according to what I have read the 12th AF had 2 groups of P38's consisting of 5 Squadrons each with a complement of around 25 aircraft. 125 P38's. The 14th flew combat operations starting in Nov 42.

JG2 flew FW190s in Africa. II Group I believe would have had 36 to 64 aircraft assigned depending on supply status and maintenance levels.

Almost 200 combat aircraft is a pretty good showing and there are 3 other types that each side has to use.

As for the squads being a bit larger I am sure the designers had a good reason to add 2 aircraft to those Squads.

Joker, I'll freely admit that my knowledge of Allied unite is nowhere close to that of what I know of Luftwaffe units, but I find it hard to believe that more than 25% of all American fighters in North Africa in February '43 were P-38's. Granted, we're not looking for perfect proportional representation here, but these initial setup proportions do not seem close to historical reports.

For which plane types were there in Feb. 1943 and in what rough proportions, all of that comes from the list of references.  There weren't any Spit 8's or 9's in the 12th AF.  There were 109G-2's and G-6's as opposed to a bunch of 109F's by 1943.  There were lots of P-38's and some 190's (less than 109's, but JG 2 was in 190's as was SKG 10 by 1943).

Brooke, regarding the G-6, the earliest record of them in Tunisia is a report of an MIA pilot shot down on April 16, 1943.

Just what constitutes "lots of P-38's"? It is common knowledge that the P-38 was the best fighter in the American arsenal at the time and units were converting to them as fast as possible, but again I have to ask - was the relative proportion of P-38 units in Tunisia close to 25% of the total number of squadrons there? I ask the same question regarding the SpitV. Seems to me that the workhorses were still the P-40 and P-39. 

As for the 190's, II/Jg 2 was the sole fighter unit with them. However there were 7 groups of 109G's and some F's* (I,II and III/Jg 53; I,II and III/Jg 77; and II/Jg 51) 
* few 109F's remained in  fighter service by February. But, Schlachtgeschwader 2 was fully equipped with the type as dive bombers. (alas, our 109F can not carry bombs)

And why sub the F-8 for SKG 10? The F-8 has too much armor and carries too much ordnance. They had A-4's and our A-5 is so close that HTC allows A-4 schemes to be skinned on the A-5. (I even skinned a SKG 10 A-4 from this exact period)

Regarding bombers, the 26's and 17's have better defense than the Ju 88's, the 25's have worse.  The 25's and 26's don't carry as much ord as 88's, the 17's are about equal.  Overall, my opinion is that it is about a wash or that the allies have a slight advantage in bombers.  Ju 88's are quite decent bombers.  I have flown them more in Scenarios than anyone in AH, including in the Tunisia Scenario in 2009 that had B-25's, B-26's, and B-17's on the allied side and Ju 88's on the axis side.

Perhaps removing the B-17 and replacing one Ju 88 squad with He 111's (external ord only) would help balance the bombers? The He-111 is alt least in the speed range of the B-25 and the defensive armament is also relatively poor.


Finally I'm happy to see that there are may who sing the praises of the C.202. 

[Devil 505]

Also how about some Jabo P-40E's?

I skinned this Tunisian beauty, and would love to see it used in the scenario.

[Guppy35]

Skip the heavy bombers.  keep it to the mediums.  Use Bostons instead of A20Gs.  Mitchells, and consider skipping 26s.  RAF Spit V, and small number IX, RAF P40E and USAAF P40F, skip the 39s., USAAF P38Gs

109G2 and G6, small number of 190s, 110s, 88s, maybe 111s?  202s


Give Bruv a small batch of Spit IXs flying as the Polish Fighting Team that was there.


I want the 417 Squadron Spit Vs.


I already have Redtails P40F set to go so he should have those


Beefcake's B25

[Guppy35]

Also how about some Jabo P-40E's?

I skinned this Tunisian beauty, and would love to see it used in the scenario.

(Image removed from quote.)

That be a K I believe with the larger tail.  Go with RAF 40Es since they had plenty of them as fighter bombers