Suggestions regarding next Scenario (October, 2016)

[KCDitto]

Times the number of planes available in the write up.

I was thinking total  not individual plane Devil.

Can the CM limit the bombs avail to the 2X500?

[Devil 505]

A-20 can carry 4x 500 lb, or 2x 500 lb, or 4x 250 lb bombs in the internal bay. Obviously the four 500 lb bombs are overkill. but the other loads leave the Axis with a slight advantage - but that is as close as these loads can get. Across 10 planes, the axis will have 1000 lbs more ord than the Allies.

If Brooke allows the max bomb loads for each plane then there will be a huge Allied advantage (6360 lbs across 10 planes).

Can the CM limit the bombs avail to the 2X500?

Brooke should be able to disable the 4x 500 lb load.

[swareiam]

Folks, I want to think about how we handle walkons and bring this discussion up again.

Are we going to:

1.  Allow all pilots (registered and walkon) to move into open spots.
or
2.  Keep registered pilots in what they registered for and assign walkons to C.202's and P-40's.

Brooke,

My first notion is to allow walk-ons to fill spots that were vacated by no shows, otherwise it's twice the management time to ensure that vacated spots are covered.

That's not how I want to spend my time.

[Devil 505]

Brooke,

My first notion is to allow walk-ons to fill spots that were vacated by no shows, otherwise it's twice the management time to ensure that vacated spots are covered.

That's not how I want to spend my time.

I agree. With the constant flux in total population over the 12 hours, I can't ever recall many of the squads being filled.

[KCDitto]

"If Brooke allows the max bomb loads for each plane then there will be a huge Allied advantage (6360 lbs across 10 planes)."

That was my point

[BFOOT1]

I agree. With the constant flux in total population over the 12 hours, I can't ever recall many of the squads being filled.

During TOT the 355th FG stayed either filled or close to filled until the last hour and half where we dropped to half. Our CO took a break and ended up sleeping till the next morning and missed out on the fun at the end 

[Devil 505]

"If Brooke allows the max bomb loads for each plane then there will be a huge Allied advantage (6360 lbs across 10 planes)."

That was my point

Yeah, but I'm not going to assume that he will make such a blunder.

[KCDitto]

Even so,

10 A-20s with guys like you know who flying them would be a force to be reckoned with.

No comment about dropping them to 4 and adding a single engine plane to the attack role

[Devil 505]

I think adding P-40's to the mix can only make the scoring more complicated. They can only carry a single 500 Lb bomb. The 190 can carry a single 250 Kg bomb, but the plane performance is unbalanced in favor of the 190. The 110 has similar performance to the P-40, but has double the bomb load.

[Brooke]

Option 1 is the one that takes management time.  You need to poll your groups, get headcounts for every group, and allocate walkons, and then keep polling and allocating for the next walkons later, etc.

Option 2 is significantly less management time.  If the walkon is to be in fighters, he gets a P-40.  Done.

The argument on management time is another reason for option 2.

[Brooke]

I agree. With the constant flux in total population over the 12 hours, I can't ever recall many of the squads being filled.

That is why I like option 2 -- otherwise, some plane types will be empty or have 2 people in them (which really sucks).  109's, 190's, P-38's, and Spits will never have only 2 people in them.

[Brooke]

A-20's vs. FW 190's and Bf 110's.

-- Attack planes will be going after bases, not towns (as they can't do much to towns).
-- As a result, targets will mostly be separated single objects, most targets are ground guns, and the vast majority of points will come from strafing.
-- I estimate that the average A-20 will get about 2 objects with bombs and that the average 190 and 110 will get slightly less than 1; but each plane will get a lot more than that in strafing.
-- You cannot have .303's as the A-20's nose guns in this one, or it would kill nothing in strafing.
-- Cannon does way more damage per round, so it isn't an issue of rounds of one vs. rounds of another.
-- The firepower of the A-20G, FW 190F, and Bf 110C are all similar (see http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php using the P-47 to estimate A-20G firepower, which are both 8x.50's).
-- Cannon is way easier to get ground guns with, because you can be off and still kill it with the explosion radius, but with MG's, rounds have to hit the gun itself, and more than one round needs to hit the gun.  Your effective target area is probably 1/2 - 1/4 what it is for cannon.  The effective firepower of the A-20 is thus less (effective being firepower x probability of hitting).
-- The A-20 is not as effective a fighter plane as either the FW 190 or the Bf 110.
-- I suspect that the A-20 will fare worse from ground gunners than 190's and 110's.

[Devil 505]

A-20's vs. FW 190's and Bf 110's.
-- I estimate that the average A-20 will get about 2 objects with bombs and that the average 190 and 110 will get slightly less than 1; but each plane will get a lot more than that in strafing.
-- Cannon does way more damage per round, so it isn't an issue of rounds of one vs. rounds of another.
-- The firepower of the A-20G, FW 190F, and Bf 110C are all similar (see http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php using the P-47 to estimate A-20G firepower, which are both 8x.50's).

Ok Brooke, I have some issues with the above items.

First, the A-20 has only 6 forward firing guns. The other 2 are in the top turret, which cannot fire strait ahead. Using the Gonzoville charts, any six .50 cal. package has a calculated lethality rating (right hand chart) of 60. The F-8 is rated for 69. A P-47 has a rating of 80. The 110C is rated at 47.

I also estimated the lethality of the 190 A-5 with only two cannon (the charts only count the largest gun package). I took the lethality of a fully armed A-5(94) and subtracted the lethality of the 109F-4(32) - leaving the value of three 20mm cannon(62). Divide 62 by 3 to find the lethality of one 20mm cannon(20.66) and add 21 to the 109F for a final lethality of 53 for the A-5. (this value is probably a little low as every 20mm cannon is counted as equal in my calculations, but the MgFF is worse than the remaining Mg 151's - regardless, it's closer to 60 than the F-8)

The firing time for the A-20 is 26 seconds and the firing time for the 20mm on a 190 is 22. So, the A-20 has longer firing duration duration and deals more damage per second vs the A-5, but less than the F-8.

Moving on to the bombs, why is the disparity so high in terms of estimated objects destroyed?
It appears to me that you are allowing the A-20 to take the max internal bomb load, even though you can equalize the loads with a smaller package for the A-20. All the gun data is moot if the bomb loads are not even close to equal. This must be fixed.

[ROC]

All the gun data is moot if the bomb loads are not even close to equal. This must be fixed.

^^
Either the objectives are based on each sides load out, or the objectives are equal and the load out is equal.  Pick one.  Can't have both.
If each plane has the same loadout and speed, then equal object counts are fine.  If one side has more bombs and is faster, and you expect 3 sorties per hour, and one side that has more ordinance also has a better ability to self defend, you unbalanced the event.  The side with the larger loadout that can self defend their bombers has an option of putting fewer escorts on the bombers, placing more on the attack side to take down the other sides bombers. Brooke, you have an equal amount of objects for each side to target over the event.  One side has smaller loadouts with bombers less likely to self defend.  If the 88s were so much faster than the Allied planes that they got in more sorties per hour but fewer bombs on target each sortie, you might have something.  But they aren't that much faster.
 
You have a basic points model that has each side dropping bombs with no objectives defined. Simple points, simple volume. It's not balanced.

Example. If you have the potential for 500 objects to be dropped in 3 hour, and one side can drop 500 objects and the other side can drop 480 objects based on loadout, that is not balanced.

If the side that can only drop 480 objects also has a bomber that does not have the gunner slots as the side that can drop 500 objects, then it is weakened and cannot defend itself, needing more escorts.

If the side that can drop 500 objects is also the side that has the better gunner positions, then that side can self defend their bomber formations easier and can rely on fewer escorts.  Those escorts can be sent against the other sides bombers.  This then requires that the side that can not self defend has to put more fighters on the task of defending their bombers, taking away their ability to attack the other sides bombers.
Now, do you have an equal amount of escorts and defenders?  You're write up might easily say yes, both sides have "x" number, but in practice, it doesn't work.  Balance is far more than 6 = 6.   Balance is Equal Chance = Equal Chance which may very well mean 5 = 7 ALL things considered.

See?  Small things to consider, incredibly powerful impacts. 

Do you know for a fact that this isn't where you are?  I know you think you aren't there, but do you know you aren't?  I asked if you considered this.  You said Yes.  No, you didn't.  You know you didn't.  The write up as it stands is crystal clear that you did not. 

Brooke, I have suggested several times that you need to count these objects.  You know I do, you know I always do. Why would I keep harping on this?  Perhaps I already did the counts myself?

But I'm done harping on it.  You said you considered all of this.  So that's good enough for me   I'll be flying Axis though, I think they are going to need a hand on this one.

[BaldEagl]

Option 1 is the one that takes management time.  You need to poll your groups, get headcounts for every group, and allocate walkons, and then keep polling and allocating for the next walkons later, etc.

Option 2 is significantly less management time.  If the walkon is to be in fighters, he gets a P-40.  Done.

The argument on management time is another reason for option 2.

You really want to discourage walk-on's don't you.  I'm afraid you'll get exactly what your trying for... the regulars registering, a percentage of them showing up and no walk-on's.

I've never flown in any scenario where every registered pilot made every frame.  Never.  Those spots were most often filled by walk-on's.  It's never been a problem in the past so why is it suddenly such a big issue now?  Hell, in the last BoB my entire squad was a different group of walk-on's every week (flying Spits BTW).

You're really over-thinking this.  Leave it up to the CiC's and GL's and it will all work out fine.