Author Topic: New Set up Rules and points for this scenario - READ THEM  (Read 9317 times)

Offline ROC

  • Aces High CM Staff (Retired)
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7699
Re: New Set up Rules and points for this scenario - READ THEM
« Reply #45 on: August 28, 2016, 12:08:47 PM »
Quote
It places the value in escaping an engagement instead of winning it.

Furthermore, it discourages post T+60 action when the max landing bonus is had when RTBing from the primary mission.

Reading through this thread got me thinking about the whole point of scoring.  It's a reward system, obviously.  One of the things that we miss in a game is how pilots evolved in the war.  They lived, they gained experience, they increased the potential of the team.  The IJN had a serious problem near the end of the war, as an example, too many planes, not enough talented pilots.  By attrition, the opposition got stronger and smarter, the IJN talent pool shrunk, and they continued to put greener and greener pilots up against real veterans gaining more and more experience shooting down the noobs.

I understand fully the desire to reward pilots for landing, to incentivize the drive to get home alive is a good goal.  In game, that simple measure doesn't translate into gaining an advantage for surviving yet another sortie, it's simply a point consideration and Devil is right, it can be an incentive to avoid the fight.  In a fight based event, you can't have an incentive to avoid engagement.

You could build into a scoring system a very real reward for surviving, while encouraging engagement.  If you land successfully, good for you, you gained no kills, you get no points, being alive is a reward.  If you get a kill, but are shot down, you gained something for the team but no longer translate that gain into experience as you died, so you get a point.   However, if youou get a kill, and also survive, you gain for the team as well as experience and translate that into a landing bonus.  You kill and land you get x2 points, or another multiplier.  Bomber lives matter as well, getting your formation home gains more points than getting a single one home, you lost 2/3 of your fighting force, there were crews, pilots, gunners no longer bringing experience to the next battle so the landing bonus shrinks.

The more kills you get, and bring home, the better you score.  Incentive to fight, incentive to get kills, huge incentive to get home.  You even have a very solid incentive to get your ace pilots home, if you have no kills and he has 4, get his bellybutton home alive.  There is a great incentive for the team to protect each other and work together.  Keep the formations alive, keep the fighters alive, keep those who did the damage alive as the entire team benefits if those guys and gals get home.

You can use the scoring to do far more than simply generate points, you can use the scoring system to emulate real life conditions and simulate the experience gained by surviving a battle that only achieves a reward if you damage the other side.  Never add a point bonus that rewards nothing.

The T+60 element is now a major factor, because of the ability to get another mission up and honestly have a shot at getting back into the win column if you out fly the other side.  Come back with a vengeance, wipe their side out, and the side that's behind can get the landing bonus and actually catch up.  Incentives to keep going past the initial engagement.  These all have to be considered in a design.

Simple peanut gallery observation.  Of course, numbers and side balance is a different consideration all together, as is being discussed in the scenario thread and does apply to FSO as well.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2016, 12:11:11 PM by ROC »
ROC
Nothing clever here.  Please, move along.

Offline j500ss

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 495
Re: New Set up Rules and points for this scenario - READ THEM
« Reply #46 on: August 28, 2016, 12:56:48 PM »
It places the value in escaping an engagement instead of winning it.

Furthermore, it discourages post T+60 action when the max landing bonus is had when RTBing from the primary mission.

The setup it's self did not lend itself to have that ability.   Were you going to engage combat, then RTB refuel, and go chase down the other side?   Then meet somewhere in the middle to fight it out?

Separation of allied and axis fields just really did not lend itself the ability to do that.   

As far as scores, the high buff strikes went well from what I saw, but the low ones took a beating.  I can say that due to fact I was in a B-25H for frames 2 and 3. 

I don't know who won, and I don't care to be honest.   But I have a gut feeling it was not a points landslide victory, then again maybe I am wrong, which is ok as at some point we all are.

The setup IMO simply suffers from target placements.   The notion that stacking 4 valid targets into 2 map sectors is just plain wrong!!

In this one, the Axis simply lift from a base, climb and wait.  They knew the max formation bomber alt.  They were full aware of the fact that the Allies had to field bombers with NO BOMBSITES.   So the  ideal setup is have defenses at 2 alts, assign squads specific duties as the strikes and sweeps unfold.....

Now the problem with that notion?......  Mass Allied sweeps, where the Axis simply get out gunned at higher alts. 

There was a time, when the notion of stacking targets was a NO NO!!   In this setup as with a couple others recently, we see the issues with it.

Everyone wants a mass fight..... Seems nothing else matters.....  Folks just want a fight, and they want it for 120 minutes.  With the numbers, there should be at least 2, and no more than 3 targets per side, with 20-30 miles separation.   

To facilitate the 120 minutes of action, Axis and Allied fields should probably be within 50 miles of each other.  However, there would have to be something that would designate specific bases for bomber rearms ( for both sides ) that protect them from the vulch.   That assures second strikes actually could be achieved if that is what your going for.

A number of folks a while back jumped on the " we gotta have action" wagons.  Well you got it on a silver platter, now it needs adjustments.   It will take input from both sides to make it happen, and it will take restraint from CM's to make a small adjustment here, a couple there, ect, ect.   

Just a few trivial thoughts

 :salute



Online Devil 505

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8822
Re: New Set up Rules and points for this scenario - READ THEM
« Reply #47 on: August 28, 2016, 01:24:24 PM »
The setup it's self did not lend itself to have that ability.   Were you going to engage combat, then RTB refuel, and go chase down the other side?   Then meet somewhere in the middle to fight it out?

Separation of allied and axis fields just really did not lend itself the ability to do that.   

As far as scores, the high buff strikes went well from what I saw, but the low ones took a beating.  I can say that due to fact I was in a B-25H for frames 2 and 3. 

I don't know who won, and I don't care to be honest.   But I have a gut feeling it was not a points landslide victory, then again maybe I am wrong, which is ok as at some point we all are.

The setup IMO simply suffers from target placements.   The notion that stacking 4 valid targets into 2 map sectors is just plain wrong!!

In this one, the Axis simply lift from a base, climb and wait.  They knew the max formation bomber alt.  They were full aware of the fact that the Allies had to field bombers with NO BOMBSITES.   So the  ideal setup is have defenses at 2 alts, assign squads specific duties as the strikes and sweeps unfold.....

Now the problem with that notion?......  Mass Allied sweeps, where the Axis simply get out gunned at higher alts. 

There was a time, when the notion of stacking targets was a NO NO!!   In this setup as with a couple others recently, we see the issues with it.

Everyone wants a mass fight..... Seems nothing else matters.....  Folks just want a fight, and they want it for 120 minutes.  With the numbers, there should be at least 2, and no more than 3 targets per side, with 20-30 miles separation.   

To facilitate the 120 minutes of action, Axis and Allied fields should probably be within 50 miles of each other.  However, there would have to be something that would designate specific bases for bomber rearms ( for both sides ) that protect them from the vulch.   That assures second strikes actually could be achieved if that is what your going for.

A number of folks a while back jumped on the " we gotta have action" wagons.  Well you got it on a silver platter, now it needs adjustments.   It will take input from both sides to make it happen, and it will take restraint from CM's to make a small adjustment here, a couple there, ect, ect.   

Just a few trivial thoughts

 :salute

I fully agree with what you are saying. My observation that you quoted was not specific to just this design, but to any which would employ this kind of scoring. PTO setups rarely allow for post - T+60 sorties.

In terms of the mass fights, I have always felt that the ideal battle was roughly 30 pilots per side. Too many is the chaos we've seen the last two months and too few results in battles being decided at first contact and very quickly. The later was seen too often last year and prompted the reduction in targets in most designs this year - with mixed results, but generally better than before.
Kommando Nowotny

FlyKommando.com

Offline JunkyII

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8428
Re: New Set up Rules and points for this scenario - READ THEM
« Reply #48 on: August 28, 2016, 02:12:11 PM »
It wasn't hard to see the writing on the wall...we all knew what was going to happen...and like normal...its "oh you axis guys need to just toughen up...we know you can do it...you have XXXX advantage...you have this, you have that..."

I have been trying to get out of FSO for 4 months now...but I am outvoted...but after asking for Nikis for 3 frames with the best niki pilot in the game on my roster...I have an extra vote for leaving FSO...
No squad should have exclusive rights to a single plane IMO....Honestly that's just silly to me that you think you should have them because one of your sticks flys it exclusively....should only JG11 get 152s because  Zoney flys them almost exclusively??? But what about other squads like POTW who has a member that also flys it almost exclusively???(Oh and he lost a 1v1 in N1ks in KOTH this week....but some of us know it's any given sunday when it comes to ACM, there is no "best" in any ride)
DFC Member
Proud Member of Pigs on the Wing
"Yikes"

Offline j500ss

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 495
Re: New Set up Rules and points for this scenario - READ THEM
« Reply #49 on: August 28, 2016, 02:32:00 PM »
No squad should have exclusive rights to a single plane IMO....Honestly that's just silly to me that you think you should have them because one of your sticks flys it exclusively....should only JG11 get 152s because  Zoney flys them almost exclusively??? But what about other squads like POTW who has a member that also flys it almost exclusively???(Oh and he lost a 1v1 in N1ks in KOTH this week....but some of us know it's any given sunday when it comes to ACM, there is no "best" in any ride)

I think what puller was trying to get across was the fact he hoped they would at least in 1 frame out of 3 they would draw Niki's.   

Just as everyone on the allied side hoped to for at least one frame to get the F-4U. 

This was another FSO, where we had a lot of airframes to fill, I thought each side could have done without at least 1 of them.

Online Devil 505

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8822
Re: New Set up Rules and points for this scenario - READ THEM
« Reply #50 on: August 28, 2016, 02:46:04 PM »
I think what puller was trying to get across was the fact he hoped they would at least in 1 frame out of 3 they would draw Niki's.   
This, and that his guy is considered one of the best pilots in the N1K2.
Kommando Nowotny

FlyKommando.com

Offline waystin2

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10095
Re: New Set up Rules and points for this scenario - READ THEM
« Reply #51 on: August 28, 2016, 03:06:40 PM »
I do not think the results of this months FSO (good or bad) are due to what squadrons were assigned to which side, what planes were allocated to whom, or if the CM's are out to punish and/or tell one side or the other that they just need to try harder.  The results are based on a write-up that needs adjusting and the execution by the CIC's & squads on each side. 

CO for the Pigs On The Wing
& The nicest guy in Aces High!

Offline j500ss

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 495
Re: New Set up Rules and points for this scenario - READ THEM
« Reply #52 on: August 28, 2016, 03:34:08 PM »
This, and that his guy is considered one of the best pilots in the N1K2.

Not much argument in that statement at all..

I do not think the results of this months FSO (good or bad) are due to what squadrons were assigned to which side, what planes were allocated to whom, or if the CM's are out to punish and/or tell one side or the other that they just need to try harder.  The results are based on a write-up that needs adjusting and the execution by the CIC's & squads on each side. 



Waystin,

I personally do not think for 1 minute anyone is out to punish anyone.   

Granted that in most cases Cic's play a HUGE role, but you must realize that the setup itself lends to their ability to effectively do some things. 
On the allied side for example, a Cic simply cannot expect squads to go in at a safe alt behind the mass sweeps when said squad is flying an A-20 or B-25H and have no bomb sights.    Are there work arounds?   Sure there are, but I'm not giving that info out  :D

Now lets look at the Axis side, as Cic are you going to waste a squad or 2, heck maybe 3 to go look for the inbound formations?  Given the size of the map, and potential inbound routes to the target area would you as a Cic want to be that light in defenders #'s.

Remember your scout squads may never see a single plane, just due to area, terrain, and clouds.   They may even miss an inbound strike do alt they are at or the strike package is at.   It happens believe it or not.

Could Cic's done different and made a difference?   Yes, but that is part of the nature of FSO, everyone takes a turn.  Everyone has a different approach given circumstance and setup.  I tend to think my thought process behind it all is that having everyone in a small confined area, is typically going to define frame outcome.  Where as having say 2 battle areas can provide 2 totally different results within a frame, thus a potential to keep things evened out a bit better.

 :salute

Offline waystin2

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10095
Re: New Set up Rules and points for this scenario - READ THEM
« Reply #53 on: August 28, 2016, 03:43:03 PM »
Not much argument in that statement at all..

Waystin,

I personally do not think for 1 minute anyone is out to punish anyone.   

Granted that in most cases Cic's play a HUGE role, but you must realize that the setup itself lends to their ability to effectively do some things. 
On the allied side for example, a Cic simply cannot expect squads to go in at a safe alt behind the mass sweeps when said squad is flying an A-20 or B-25H and have no bomb sights.    Are there work arounds?   Sure there are, but I'm not giving that info out  :D

Now lets look at the Axis side, as Cic are you going to waste a squad or 2, heck maybe 3 to go look for the inbound formations?  Given the size of the map, and potential inbound routes to the target area would you as a Cic want to be that light in defenders #'s.

Remember your scout squads may never see a single plane, just due to area, terrain, and clouds.   They may even miss an inbound strike do alt they are at or the strike package is at.   It happens believe it or not.

Could Cic's done different and made a difference?   Yes, but that is part of the nature of FSO, everyone takes a turn.  Everyone has a different approach given circumstance and setup.  I tend to think my thought process behind it all is that having everyone in a small confined area, is typically going to define frame outcome.  Where as having say 2 battle areas can provide 2 totally different results within a frame, thus a potential to keep things evened out a bit better.

 :salute
If you read my post again you will see I agree with you J500.  I do not think this is a case of CM's punishing one side or the other or asking them to try harder.  It has no bearing in this conversation. Nor is this an impeachment of the CIC's or any particular squad.  We all knew what was for dinner when we sat down together on that first Friday night.  Now is the time to offer solutions or suggestions and then set our sights on September.
CO for the Pigs On The Wing
& The nicest guy in Aces High!

Offline puller

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2209
Re: New Set up Rules and points for this scenario - READ THEM
« Reply #54 on: August 28, 2016, 04:36:29 PM »
No squad should have exclusive rights to a single plane IMO....Honestly that's just silly to me that you think you should have them because one of your sticks flys it exclusively....should only JG11 get 152s because  Zoney flys them almost exclusively??? But what about other squads like POTW who has a member that also flys it almost exclusively???(Oh and he lost a 1v1 in N1ks in KOTH this week....but some of us know it's any given sunday when it comes to ACM, there is no "best" in any ride)

Any time I mention cmex or saw...or even insinuate that I am referring to them...here you come...
That's it...I was expecting them every frame...just like I expect to get a fighter when I put that as my preference every month... :rolleyes:

I think what puller was trying to get across was the fact he hoped they would at least in 1 frame out of 3 they would draw Niki's.   


Thank you...not one of us C.O.s has ever expected our ride preference every frame...it pretty much tells the CIC to look at all frames involved to make sure that each squad gets their preference at least one frame...

Junky has cmex and saw living in his head rent free at all times  :ahand Since I am the only one who haunts these boards regularly he has to remind me of it...

As I said...I want out of this...though I do love the concept of FSO and how it brings my guys together once a week 3 weeks out of the month...This year has really strained my will to proceed...and I have voiced my displeasure time and time again...

I look forward to AH3...maybe I'll take a fresh start outlook on FSO...start anew...the squad is growing...in manpower and skills...its sad though when we have more fun fighting eachother than our friends in FSO though...
"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."
CO   Anti-Horde

Offline ImADot

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6215
Re: New Set up Rules and points for this scenario - READ THEM
« Reply #55 on: August 28, 2016, 05:44:35 PM »
The constant arguing, complaining, moaning, foot stomping, etc. that I'm seeing more and more of in here, makes me want to sit down and give careful thought as to why I would want to continue my role...
My Current Rig:
GigaByte GA-X99-UD4 Mobo w/ 16Gb RAM
Intel i7 5820k, Win7 64-bit
NVidia GTX 970 4Gb ACX 2.0
Track IR, CH Fighterstick, CH Pro Throttle, CH Pro Pedals

Offline JunkyII

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8428
Re: New Set up Rules and points for this scenario - READ THEM
« Reply #56 on: August 28, 2016, 06:02:42 PM »

I did misread your initial post and I apologize for that, read it as you think you should get them because of one pilot...didn't see that part about asking for them.

EDIT: It wasn't a jab at Cmex, it was me making a point that any pilot can be beat in any plane....see it all the time in KOTH.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2016, 06:23:46 PM by JunkyII »
DFC Member
Proud Member of Pigs on the Wing
"Yikes"

Offline Nefarious

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15858
Re: New Set up Rules and points for this scenario - READ THEM
« Reply #57 on: August 28, 2016, 06:53:53 PM »
The constant arguing, complaining, moaning, foot stomping, etc. that I'm seeing more and more of in here, makes me want to sit down and give careful thought as to why I would want to continue my role...

+1
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline j500ss

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 495
Re: New Set up Rules and points for this scenario - READ THEM
« Reply #58 on: August 28, 2016, 07:35:50 PM »
If you read my post again you will see I agree with you J500.  I do not think this is a case of CM's punishing one side or the other or asking them to try harder.  It has no bearing in this conversation. Nor is this an impeachment of the CIC's or any particular squad.  We all knew what was for dinner when we sat down together on that first Friday night.  Now is the time to offer solutions or suggestions and then set our sights on September.

That's on me Way.  I should have said from the beginning I agree with you.   

I was just pointing out some logic as I see it, does not mean it is right, or wrong. 

Cic is typically no cake walk, CM has a tougher role, more time consuming just overall.    It is ( time ) the #1 reason I simply have not volunteered to give it a try.  Ops stuff just for my squad can be at times,  more than I have time for.

This one is behind us, now we have a new game all together to deal with.  We all how need to work on making sure we do what we can to keep numbers, as we simply do not know who can and cannot play the game due to hardware issues......

So numbers for September could be a real "who knows for sure"  :headscratch:

So puller, I hear by decree you guys cannot leave , not yet anyways  :devil


 :salute
Jdog


Offline DH367th

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 771
Re: New Set up Rules and points for this scenario - READ THEM
« Reply #59 on: August 28, 2016, 07:40:58 PM »
+1
You don't have to be crazy but it helps