Author Topic: Risk Aversion Rewared  (Read 3144 times)

Offline Lusche

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Re: Risk Aversion Rewared
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2016, 12:35:41 PM »
An incompetent fighter pilot could never do well enough in K/D, K/S or Hit % to ever have a high score.

Wouldn't this argument goes both ways? :)

And you can't get a good h/h or hit% without being reasonably good in it... but you could get shot by many people just by messing up.
No, taking a lot of damage ain't a sign of anything.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2016, 12:37:38 PM by Lusche »
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Offline caldera

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Re: Risk Aversion Rewared
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2016, 12:46:45 PM »
Wouldn't this argument goes both ways? :)

And you can't get a good h/h or hit% without being reasonably good in it... but you could get shot by many people just by messing up.
No, taking a lot of damage ain't a sign of anything.

It's hits per sortie, not damage.  One ping indicates a player took a shot at you.  A player that gets in to the mix is more likely to get pinged by multiple players than someone in a Tempest blasting through a furball.

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Offline Lusche

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Re: Risk Aversion Rewared
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2016, 12:55:22 PM »
It's hits per sortie, not damage.  One ping indicates a player took a shot at you.  A player that gets in to the mix is more likely to get pinged by multiple players than someone in a Tempest blasting through a furball.

Still the same. Getting hit by enemies could still simply be by messing up SA big time. It's less a sign of anything like skill than any of the existing categories.
It adds nothing.

The "tempest blasting through a furball' (if someone is to find any furballs at all) could be much simpler be adressed by the perk vs score points solution I proposed earlier.
And even that wouldn't eliminate what some would describe "gaming the score"
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Offline Lusche

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Re: Risk Aversion Rewared
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2016, 12:58:44 PM »
While were at the rank things, some food for thought:

I ran some numbers. The same fighter stats that resulted in having rank 9 for last tour would have given me a rank in the lower 200s 10 years ago...
The changing environment has a profound effect on what gets you into the top and what not.
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Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: Risk Aversion Rewared
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2016, 01:55:19 PM »
Alright. Just for the record, I'm not the fighter the OP is referring to  :D as some of you know I bring up scoring sometimes on the forum. I think AH has one the best scoring models of any game.

I only do this when players who haven't played a while, who I've never seen in the game, talk about the flight model or talk about their skills in air combat, while having nothing to base these accusations on. Just to give them a challenge.


Let's talk about fighter scoring, as most other scores are based on killing stationary objects.

1. Just because you are a good 1v1 fighter doesn't mean you are good in the MA. This is also vice versa. Being good in a 1v1 won't make you #1 fighter, and being good in the MA doesn't mean you are the best 1v1 fighter.

2. There seems to be this notion that flying timidly means you are playing for score. This is false in most cases. Players who fly timidly actually don't rank as good. They tend to have a lower Kills per hour and typically don't get as many kills. Players who fly too timidly don't know how to utilize their E and get quick kills when the time is right. They tend to only land 1 or 2 kills in a 45 minute sortie thus not actually achieving a good score.

3. There is a reason why most players don't actually achieve a good fighter score if they try. They don't understand how the scoring works and don't fly the right planes with the right style. It's almost entirely based on how well you actually know the airplane and the situation you are in. For example, someone who flies a P51D at 25K and only gets 2 kills while BnZing and never taking any risk, is not going to achieve a good fighter rank even if they are actually trying.

4. The best rankers actually take risks, get down and dirty, claw their way out of messes and get 4-5 kills in the process. Even if they die. They get more kills. They get faster kills. And they tend to get better shots on their opponents during the process to make Hit% nice. Some even use bombers to get a better Hit% and points.

5. Myths:

          Players who fly timidly are playing for rank.

This is FALSE. Timid flying is based on natural instincts. Running to ack is natural instincts. This type of flying is based on players who do not know how to utilize their plane to the full strength, thereby only using speed as their main advantage to get away from trouble.

              The longer a player plays per month the better their rank will be.

            This is FALSE. One of the best parts of AH ranking is that it's not based on a time system. For the most part. A player who plays for 150 hours a month, may be #1 in the point category, but they have 4 other categories they have to keep high as well. Sometimes the more play, actually hurts your rank, as you have to keep up the other categories constantly. Some one with 15 hours could have better marks in  the other categories, thus giving them a better rank.

                      The best rankers never die.

This is FALSE. Some of the best rankers die 50% of the time. K/D is only one category. Again, you have to keep it up, but it's not the most important. A player who gets 1 kill and lands, will have a worse rank than a player who gets 4 kills quickly and dies. It's all about understanding the score model.

                         Players who fly easy mode planes get the best ranks.

This is FALSE. Just because a player flies easier planes, doesn't mean they are good enough to achieve a good score. You still have to know how to fly these planes, get a lot of kills, and keep up your score for more than 15 sorties. Most players cannot achieve this even in easier perked planes. That being said, if a player knows how to utilize a high score, flying an easier plane will give them an advantage.


Any one can achieve high scores, and ranking is easy or unvalued as skill in AH.

This is FALSE. Despite complaints about how some players fly. Achieving a high rank is not that easy. You have to really understand how to fly in AH. Understand your planes, your SA, and actually know how to get kills quickly. You have to know how to find fights on the map and get kills quickly. A person who achieves a high rank understands this. One of the biggest reasons why most players don't score high, is that they don't understand how to utilize different planes for different situations. They don't know how to get quick kills. They don't know how to combined all the categories of rank into one sortie. They don't have the patients to work on their ACM and their SA in the MA, where things are never fair.


Now, I'm not saying that anyone who doesn't do this is a bad fighter. Most just don't care. Most don't even try. And most aren't into #s. What I am sayin is that for the people who do try for rank, or the people who you do think are trying for rank, there are many considerations to how they fly, and what they fly, that can gauge whether they actually know what they are doing. I find it very competitive to achieve a higher fighter rank, And thus I know the type of skills it does take to achieve.


I hope this clarifies your sentiment.

 :salute

« Last Edit: September 17, 2016, 02:55:50 PM by DmonSlyr »
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Offline LilMak

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Re: Risk Aversion Rewared
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2016, 02:39:35 PM »
As soon as someone brings up score as a sign of ability I glaze over. It's pretty meaningless because it is so easy to manipulate. You can look at it and kinda get a general idea but it will never tell the whole story no matter how many variables you throw in.

The only true measure of the game is how much fun YOU have playing it. Based on the longevity of the game, it passes the fun test with flying colors.
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Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: Risk Aversion Rewared
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2016, 02:48:38 PM »
I actually like the ENY per sortie as a score. That would get players in older planes and create better fights.

Also, Louche, it's crazy the difference in statistics from 2006 and now. I think is purely based on # of players and good competitors. You can see from 2006, that it was much more difficult and you had to get much higher #s to be the top fighter.

Kills per Death + 1   9.88   21.   21
Kills per Sortie   5.12   6.               6
Kills per Hour of Flight   18.07   13
Kills Hit Percentage   16.17   27
Kill Points   49447.08        108

Statistics
         Fighter   
Kills          425   0   0   0   425
Assists   76   0   0   0   76
Sorties   83   0   0   0   83
 Landed   38   0   0   0   38
 Bailed   4   0   0   0   4
 Ditched   3   0   0   0   3
 Captured   12   0   0   0   12
 Deaths   26   0   0   0   26
 Discos   0   0   0   0   0
Time hh:mm:ss   23:30:55   00:00:00   00:00:00   00:00:00   23:30:55
Rank   2   
« Last Edit: September 17, 2016, 02:53:02 PM by DmonSlyr »
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Offline Lusche

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Re: Risk Aversion Rewared
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2016, 03:05:36 PM »
Also, Louche, it's crazy the difference in statistics from 2006 and now. I think is purely based on # of players and good competitors. You can see from 2006, that it was much more difficult and you had to get much higher #s to be the top fighter.


The score points (= kills tally) and especially the kills/hour were MUCH higher for the top scores back then. Elite furballers could had always found one, join in and rack up a lot of kills in very short times. Now they often have to cope with single cons even during prime time.
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Risk Aversion Rewared
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2016, 04:40:57 PM »
As soon as someone brings up score as a sign of ability I glaze over. It's pretty meaningless because it is so easy to manipulate.

Agreed that's why I wanted to initiate a discussion about a more system intelligent-based approach. I share your sentimeent about a more internally reflective view but find this rare lately.


Lusche I found this quote:-

"Offensively, the Mosquito units also conducted night time fighter sweeps in indirect and direct protection of RAF Bomber Command's heavy bombers to help reduce RAF bomber losses in 1944 and 1945. The Mosquito increased German night fighter losses to such an extent the Germans were said to have awarded two victories for shooting one down" - Hastings 1979, p. 240.

Perhaps an unsubstantiated rumour. I'm pretty sure the Japanese Navy at least scored partial kills per unit. Couldn't find my Sakai book. I think I actually sent it to an AH player.


Players who fly timidly actually don't rank as good. They tend to have a lower Kills per hour and typically don't get as many kills.

That's also why I brought up point number 2 - Why is the time of day / density of players not taken into consideration? I know the dwindling numbers exasperated this but it's a lot harder to find fights in some European, Australian and far Eastern player's hours than at American Prime time.

No it wasn't you, I said below intermediate ACM  :D

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Offline Crash Orange

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Re: Risk Aversion Rewared
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2016, 05:00:46 PM »
But even that would be gameable, so to speak. The hot shots of AH would congregate onto a very few "sweet spot" ENY 15-20 rides, and the ENY value debates would get quite heated.

It would be very gameable, and it SHOULD be quite heated. The ENY of all the Luftwaffe fighters is ridiculous. The 109K4 should be a 5, it's one of the deadliest fighters in the game. The 190D9 should be 6 or 8, the 152 the same.

Also, if we had ENY score, kills in perk planes should score 1/4 the normal score, and jets/rockets 1/8. 

Offline Invictus84

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Re: Risk Aversion Rewared
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2016, 10:48:05 PM »
 :headscratch:

Is there a point to this subject?


EDIT:  As in does anyone expect the scoring criteria to change?  Or that it really should be?
« Last Edit: September 17, 2016, 11:28:09 PM by Invictus84 »

Offline nrshida

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Re: Risk Aversion Rewared
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2016, 02:16:25 AM »
Is there a point to this subject?

EDIT:  As in does anyone expect the scoring criteria to change?  Or that it really should be?

Well that's a difficult question. Do I feel the present scoring reflects accurately on my (for instance) AH activities? No (hence the thread). Ought the scoring system be expanded to encapsulate everyone's activies in order to have any merit at all? Probably. Can it be done technically? Certainly. If it doesn't, should an opt-out option be therefore included to reflect the division between those who presently play by the score and those who ignore it? Probably be fairer wouldn't it. Is there any expectation that the suggestion of any new or innovative ideas could be discussed on this forum? Looking increasingly unlikely isn't it. Is it possible to indeed have a constructive discussion in the wider sense here? Signal to noise ratio is leaning on the rather low side of the spectrum. Is your question a real question or another 'let's all keep everything exactly the way it is' remark. Who can tell.

 

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Offline Tilt

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Re: Risk Aversion Rewared
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2016, 03:56:34 AM »
Time spent manoeuvring to advantage or waiting for the "pick" or always ensuring you rtb must affect the kills/hr ratio.

I think if you want to influence the fighter score ( in the manner I think you would wish)  then the system should reward the kills/ hour more or better still find some way to measure and reward the engagements / hour ( possibly adding pertinent deaths to this scoring element).

Of course this penalises such things as escort......but escort is a rare thing anyway.

Conversely

I see or at least have seen praise here for folk who just throw them selves into a combat with ( should the situation actually be looked at in advance) no hope of a successfull outcome.

Indeed I have, when some what bored, done exactly the same. Diving into a group of enemy knowing they are communicating and slowly ( or some times more quickly) being e drained or manoeuvred to a point where the thousand cuts become one too many or I am saddled with no real hope of evasion.

This is usually the last desperate attempt at entertainment before I log out.

The argument of some is that by doing this I will improve my skill. Playing this genre of game for some 20 years now I think I can pretty well be certain that there is no metamorphism of ability awaiting me. My trained reactions and instinctive ACM is not going to substantially improve.

What I can do is out think my opponent, not give him an edge, maximise my edge, don't do dumb things, know when to bug out, know when to stay for the kill, apply a dicipline of game play.

Do I do this all the time? No this too would become boring. Does it bring reward when applied? Yes..... Because I set out to do it and it worked.

However, somehow I feel that this would not fit into the world that some would wish to advance..........

Experience and guile v energy and skill??



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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Risk Aversion Rewared
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2016, 05:07:41 AM »
In any game the players are going to hunt up and engage in the activities which bring them the most fun. Then there are people that cannot stand for anyone to have fun that does not include them. Aesop even had a fable about it.

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Offline Sloehand

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Re: Risk Aversion Rewared
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2016, 05:16:16 AM »
It amazes me how many people whine about others' gameplay.  Like "dam, him for finding an efficient and effective way for me not to kill him.  Its just not fair!"  Whine, whine, whine.   Well, if the whiner is so dam good, and it bothers him sooooo much, then he should show his awesome-ness by being able to find a way to hunt down and draw the bad guy into a fight.  Otherwise, the bad guys is just doing what he thinks he has to do to play the game to his satisfaction and stay alive while doing it.  No doubt its not as much fun to the big game hunter not to have his prey just march right into the trap and commit suicide, but's that's the way it is.  To me, such whiners are more of a pain than any timid fighter pilot.  Get over yourself.  We're not here for your enjoyment, really!
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