Tracer smoke moves wrong way in turn fight

[Dobs]

See rule #4

[FLS]

See rule #4

At any point in Hitech's diagram he's pointing out too. You may believe you're being analytical but in fact you don't know what you're talking about. You know some terminology that you use incorrectly. You imagine one aspect of a complicated interaction and miss the relevant details. Everything is clearly explained to you and you still don't understand it. You argue without knowledge or logic or common sense.

[Dobs]

Really...

Point out to me where I'm wrong.

I expect to see your post edited as well.

[Dobs]

Hi tech...did you delete my post because I called him out... or did you delete my post because it was contrary to his beliefs..?


Background check for me FLS...what are your credentials in the aero world...

Because my post is now where near as bad as his...even  if he is a fanboi...

[Dobs]

So far all I've seen from FLS is a refusal to admit he could be in error.

Closed to input, argues everything, and won't explain himself. Hides behind the board, and refused to explain anything other than to say "you are wrong".

Even Hitech attempts to explain...

So you are offically a closed book for me FLS..whatever knowledge you may have, think you have, you can keep to yourself. I'm not interested in your inputs...Reminds me of GS worker.

[hitech]

Dobs, you really fail to understand definitions of AOA.

It is the angle between the wing cord and the velocity (relative wind) vector.

By definition the velocity vector is the tangent of the circle when turning.


HiTech

[Dobs]

I understand that, Hitech I really do...but a 4g turn at 350 knots has how much AOA vs a 4g tun at 250 knots.

Maybe what I'm missing here is what you are using as AOA units of measure....and its more than I'm expecting.

Anyway... thank you again for all the replies.

[hitech]

I understand that, Hitech I really do...but a 4g turn at 350 knots has how much AOA vs a 4g tun at 250 knots.

Maybe what I'm missing here is what you are using as AOA units of measure....and its more than I'm expecting.

Anyway... thank you again for all the replies.

Dobs you may wish to stop while your ahead, "AOA units of measure....and its more than I'm expecting" is pretty much nonsensical.

HiTech

[Dawger]

Assuming AOA measured in degrees, most wings reach critical AOA between 15 and 20 degrees.

So any angular difference between velocity vector and boresight is going to be less than this amount ALWAYS in WWII aircraft. Most of the time the difference is much smaller.

It is fairly easily calculated.

So any apparent angle greater than 10 degrees should be questioned for cause (canted guns as Dobs mentioned being one such cause).

Yall are all saying the same thing in this thread and because no one is using numbers, it is degenerating into a pissing contest which HTC invariably will win.

The only question that need be answered is "Does the angular difference between boresight and velocity vector meet the basic math for the shot in question?"

To answer that question you need Max AOA in degrees or radians and current AOA in the same unit (HT can just look at the AOA directly) and compare that to the angle at which the tracer smoke is diverging from the aircraft.

Anything over 20 degrees is immediately known to be bogus unless guns are canted. Anything over 10 should mean the target is below the nose in most aircraft in AH.

[hitech]

Assuming AOA measured in degrees, most wings reach critical AOA between 15 and 20 degrees.

So any angular difference between velocity vector and boresight is going to be less than this amount ALWAYS in WWII aircraft. Most of the time the difference is much smaller.

It is fairly easily calculated.

So any apparent angle greater than 10 degrees should be questioned for cause (canted guns as Dobs mentioned being one such cause).

Yall are all saying the same thing in this thread and because no one is using numbers, it is degenerating into a pissing contest which HTC invariably will win.

The only question that need be answered is "Does the angular difference between boresight and velocity vector meet the basic math for the shot in question?"

To answer that question you need Max AOA in degrees or radians and current AOA in the same unit (HT can just look at the AOA directly) and compare that to the angle at which the tracer smoke is diverging from the aircraft.

Anything over 20 degrees is immediately known to be bogus unless guns are canted. Anything over 10 should mean the target is below the nose in most aircraft in AH.

Or you could simply look from an outside view in the film viewer turn on flight paths and let the computer do all the calculations. And see the smoke trails go up.

Or you could simply watch the smoke trails go up inside the cockpit.

Or with out any math you could understand that any positive angle the bullet trails will rise,math would simply a say of how much.

HiTech

[LCADolby]

Incorrect you have moved forward and down from the trail.
Diagram.

(Image removed from quote.)

Ah ha now I get it, we are, to use a auto term "drifting"

[Wiley]

Ah ha now I get it, we are, to use a auto term "drifting"

Flight is fascinating.  Stuff I've thought is wrong/glitchy often turns out to be actually the way it happens.  This thread's yet another example of it.

Wiley.

[FLS]

Ah ha now I get it, we are, to use a auto term "drifting"

The better term is flying. Drifting implies skidding which also happens in aircraft but that's not happening here. Cars don't really help you understand airplanes.

[Kingpin]

Anything over 20 degrees is immediately known to be bogus unless guns are canted.

The guns are canted upward.

The amount that the guns must be angled upward depends on:

1) How far they are mounted below the line of sight of the pilot.  The rounds must rise from the gun-barrel to the pipper (line of sight).  Aircraft like the F4U, because of it's gull wing, have a significant "rise" or upward cant to the gun.

2) Your convergence setting.  The ballistic properties of the gun come into play, as they are set to reach the pipper at a given range.  At convergences of 200-300 yards (for example) you will notice that 50 cal rounds will continue to rise past/above the pipper as they haven't reached the apex of their ballistic arc yet.  Cannons may have an even more significant upward canting to "lob" out to longer ranges.

If you use the YouTube settings to slow Dobs film down to 25% speed and look at the nose of the aircraft, you can clearly see the smoke trails originate well below the pipper (at the gun barrels at either side of the nose), rise to the where the pipper was aimed and continue onward.

The fact that he is zoomed in exaggerates the optical illusion even further.  This is all in addition to the AoA vs. thrust vector issue.

Hope this information helps.

Remember this is a fun game.  Play nice everyone. 

<S>
Kingpin

 

[Dobs]

Actually no its not Hitech...How many alpha is 10-20-30? Is that AOA or is that a unit of measurement used by military to determine regimes of flight...exceed 30 units you are stalling the wing.  30 units =how many degrees of true AOA? That is the question I'm asking.  >35 Alpha you are reliant on flight computers and thrust to keep you in the air...since you are no longer flying, but falling with style.


Does your Flight model have 20 units of AOA as stall 10 units, 15  units? I don't know...not measured anywhere.  If you have stall set at large AOA, then what you put as as a diagram makes sense.

Still looking for WWII gun camera footage with tracers smoke going up while pulling Gs...let me know if you find some.