Now that the scenario is over

[Zimme83]

Again, finding a 100% equal plane set in a scenario isn't possible. Each side must evaluate their strength and weaknesses and find a way to use that to their advantage. It is also impossible to tell how everything is going to turn out. Last 12 hour scenario saw the Allies steal the victory in the last possible moment, LW fought back hard despite having inferior planes (and being outnumbered). 

[Guppy35]

Again, finding a 100% equal plane set in a scenario isn't possible. Each side must evaluate their strength and weaknesses and find a way to use that to their advantage. It is also impossible to tell how everything is going to turn out. Last 12 hour scenario saw the Allies steal the victory in the last possible moment, LW fought back hard despite having inferior planes (and being outnumbered).

What inferior planes in the last one?

[Zimme83]

109G-6 and 190 A-8 against P-51, P-38L, Spit IX.

[Molsman]

I just want to say that it felt like I flew a Goon for 12 hours, didn't make it to target half the time and died most of time being almost unable to defend myself.

But I did have enjoyment flying over the pretty terrain and listening to music before my timely death came again, and again, and again.

hey we had fun tho Beefcake even tho ya had to fly my plane for 4 hrs I will had fun just wish my back could of lasted longer even the last flight in our Pretty blue skins next 12 hr event I am going to plan on taking off so I do not have to fly with a mouse again 

[Guppy35]

109G-6 and 190 A-8 against P-51, P-38L, Spit IX.

How do the LW birds not equal the 1942 Spit IX, the Razorback Jug, P-38J and P-51B? 

[Joker312]

I see some good points made by you guys.

Zimme, your right its never going to be 100% even and I don't expect it to be. I just thought this scenario could have been better.

Roc, I saw how hard you fought to make this a good fight during the planning phase. You put a lot of time and effort into your suggestions to Brooke and its appreciated. Again I still think the planeset could have been balanced better, just my opinion. I don't expect anyone to change things just because I say so. I just wanted to voice my opinion for future reference if this setup is ever used again. I also see how Vudu would take offense to my post. It was badly worded and I didn't mean to offend anyone. I know he put a lot of time into the event and the Axis won a decisive victory. Congradulations.

Devil, you also make excellent points. The Axis plan was better. We played into your hand and suffered the consequences. I have no issue with that. That's part of the fun of these events. But I really do feel that the planeset had a lot to do with the outcome.

Corky said it better than I in his post. I am just hoping for that elusive balance between aircraft performance and numbers. That's it. Nothing else to say.

I really only want to ensure we continue to have these events and I feel a balanced fun design will attract people to them. I flew about 8 hours in this one and enjoyed the company of my friends and the action and had a lot of fun in the process.

[Dawger]

The Axis flat out whooped us.

The only thing that matters is numbers at the point of contact and Allied forces were all over the map.



Fighter support got out of sync with bombers. Bombers flew unescorted ahead of fighters.

The P38 cannot anchor and turn with 109's in equal numbers or worse yet that is what happened in every engagement.

We flew girl scout trail formations and encountered 109's in line abreast. They win the merge and they win the fight.

The Allied side was sloppy and the Axis was not.

Wherever contact was made the Axis poured in assets until they wiped out the attack.

Its pretty simple, he who has the most wins the fight and the Axis made sure they had the most at the point of contact.

[KCDitto]

The Axis flat out whooped us.

The only thing that matters is numbers at the point of contact and Allied forces were all over the map.



Fighter support got out of sync with bombers. Bombers flew unescorted ahead of fighters.

The P38 cannot anchor and turn with 109's in equal numbers or worse yet that is what happened in every engagement.

We flew girl scout trail formations and encountered 109's in line abreast. They win the merge and they win the fight.

The Allied side was sloppy and the Axis was not.

Wherever contact was made the Axis poured in assets until they wiped out the attack.

Its pretty simple, he who has the most wins the fight and the Axis made sure they had the most at the point of contact.

I was in my own group for this one, not flying with the JG11 guys in 109's. but as I am reading this, in my mind I can hear Stampf "OK boys line it up... LINE ABREAST  KILL EM ALL    NO LOSES   Get em from the TOP DOWN  That's IT  That's IT!"


I was GL of the FW-190s and had orders to hang over target fields. We watched on DAR and text as the battle unfolded every hour. My pilots did not like it and we were in the back flying in circles while the fight was going on. We took some flack from 109 drivers over this too.

Then when our bases started flashing more times then not we were there or very close and the killing of A-20's would begin.  We were the defense. As I understand it, the allies did not bother with that. Looking at all the stuff destroyed on the logs, it would seem true.

It has been said that planning does not matter. Well, I would have to disagree with that. We had a plan, we stuck with it.
After that last scenario I was shocked to see BOMBERS unescorted every time.

I had a great time and enjoyed flying with the same crew for the most part again.


For only having 6 planes at a time, we managed 92 kills with 87 assists on 72 sorties.  It was a great day.

My wife asked me today "What time do you start up this Saturday?"  I was honest and told her the next one is in February.

Already looking forward to it...   

[ROC]

Then when our bases started flashing more times then not we were there or very close and the killing of A-20's would begin.

It is very hard to be relegated to Defense Duty when all of the flashy fighter jocks are out there looking for a fight.  That is, until the realization hits, there are simply a few targets, they are coming, you are going to get them
Well Done Ditto and Company.

[Hajo]

I chose to fly the 38G in the scenario.  I did have fun but there a few problems I'd like to bring up.  Launch windows.  If you  are in the air engaged or rtb when a new launch window opens you're out of luck.

When you land you have to wait until next launch window opens.  Tower sitting.  If you get shot down which I assume everyone did you again wait in the tower for next launch window to open.  Again Tower sitting.

If you get shot down in 15 to 20 mins after launch again you are in tower for 40 to 45 minutes.  That's a lot of wasted time.  I can't play for longer then 3 hours at a time.  My eyes fall out on the desk and I have to chase them

until I find them.  For me three hours borders on very uncomfortable.  After that time I have to get up and move for awhile.  Sometimes for at least 2 hours I must leave my seat, and I do have a comfortable chair to play in.

Now this is just my personal experience and it no way should influence others opinions.  Also again another opinion which is mine alone.  I believe the 38G showed up in any scenario for the first time I can remember.

What I found out.  (in other scenarios I've flown the F4F, the P40, the P39 and been successful.) The 38G has no redeemable qualities.  It is heavier then a P47, way underpowered, can't turn without shedding energy in

huge chunks and the climb rate is poor.  It's nose guns are fine but to maneuver to get them on another aircraft in a multi plane environment is highly unlikely at best without being shot down.  However I did have fun

and it was my choice.  The reason they made the J model was because of the G. 

[GScholz]

And yet in real life the P-38G wasn't in service by the time of the battle. So you should have been flying an even worse P-38F, but we don't have that model in the game. Be grateful for small mercies.

This battle took place at the height of Luftwaffe power. 1943 was the best year for the LW in the west, but by the end of that year the Luftwaffe had lost the edge, and essentially the war.

[oboe]

At times like this I think of the real life P-38F pilots, and what they were up against.  My understanding is the real 14th FG had to stand down from losses and be reformed.  That's pretty devastating.

[Wiley]

It is very hard to be relegated to Defense Duty when all of the flashy fighter jocks are out there looking for a fight.  That is, until the realization hits, there are simply a few targets, they are coming, you are going to get them
Well Done Ditto and Company.

The only time it really, really chafed me was when they sent in the first big wing in the south.  I saw the GV bases flashing, and I was certain their bombers were having their way with them.  My vision of the future was us hanging out over 7 for that entire window while they did what they were doing a sector and a half west of us.  Then 7 started flashing and I realized it had been the right move.

Like Ditto said above, I was also shocked at the lack of bomber escorts.  The one time I led the group toward bombers near some Spitfires early in the scenario, it ended very very badly for us.  As we were sitting in the tower, I was told by the rest of the group, "Wiley, please do not do that again."

Wiley.

[Dantoo]

I don't see anybody posting in this thread that I do not consider a close friend. Please don't let this thread deteriorate. I don't want to insult or hurt anybody's feelings. I will do my best to explain what you did see or didn't see, from a planner's view (you experienced guys know what I'm talking about).

The Allies were greatly hamstrung by the inability to secure a strong and experienced scenario planning resource, early enough, to bring its tactical strengths to the fore. I am putting my hand up as being almost completely absent from the process.  I should have been able to be relied upon for guidance and ideas and unfortunately I was unable to deliver this time.

It was not the CO Allies that bears any culpability.  Red did an amazing job considering the restraints upon him.  He followed the script and set up planning with his groups in the general forum.  He made maps, consulted and adjusted.  What he didn't have was a core planning group from the get-go.  He still didn't have one at launch time.  Right now he probably feels exhausted, confused and a little down.  He deserves a round of applause - really.

Core planning is an essential for scenarios.  Nothing delivers for the players on game day so much as days and weeks of off-line flying, flight timetables and routes, target maps and approaches and above it all - confidence in what you are doing.
None of that can be done in an open forum with a sense of touch and feel good, while the crowd (who probably don't care deeply) are asked to vote up, vote down, or otherwise criticise what somebody just spent a week on.  Let's just not ever go that way again if we can avoid it.

Scenarios are chalk and cheese to FSO and any other special event that I can think of.  It requires a different mind-set and a completely different set of tactics to bring out the best from your human and material resources.

Spit 9s or 262s would not have impacted on this scenario so much if you are judging it by aircraft resources alone. 

I must admit, I should've flown a B26 from the start.  Would take more fuel though.

[Guppy35]

I don't see anybody posting in this thread that I do not consider a close friend. Please don't let this thread deteriorate. I don't want to insult or hurt anybody's feelings. I will do my best to explain what you did see or didn't see, from a planner's view (you experienced guys know what I'm talking about).

The Allies were greatly hamstrung by the inability to secure a strong and experienced scenario planning resource, early enough, to bring its tactical strengths to the fore. I am putting my hand up as being almost completely absent from the process.  I should have been able to be relied upon for guidance and ideas and unfortunately I was unable to deliver this time.

It was not the CO Allies that bears any culpability.  Red did an amazing job considering the restraints upon him.  He followed the script and set up planning with his groups in the general forum.  He made maps, consulted and adjusted.  What he didn't have was a core planning group from the get-go.  He still didn't have one at launch time.  Right now he probably feels exhausted, confused and a little down.  He deserves a round of applause - really.

Core planning is an essential for scenarios.  Nothing delivers for the players on game day so much as days and weeks of off-line flying, flight timetables and routes, target maps and approaches and above it all - confidence in what you are doing.
None of that can be done in an open forum with a sense of touch and feel good, while the crowd (who probably don't care deeply) are asked to vote up, vote down, or otherwise criticise what somebody just spent a week on.  Let's just not ever go that way again if we can avoid it.

Scenarios are chalk and cheese to FSO and any other special event that I can think of.  It requires a different mind-set and a completely different set of tactics to bring out the best from your human and material resources.

Spit 9s or 262s would not have impacted on this scenario so much if you are judging it by aircraft resources alone. 

I must admit, I should've flown a B26 from the start.  Would take more fuel though.

Amen