Author Topic: The gumbo of stutters, pauses, freeze and other ingredients  (Read 34115 times)

Offline JimmyD3

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Re: The gumbo of stutters, pauses, freeze and other ingredients
« Reply #165 on: January 07, 2017, 12:58:13 PM »
I was having a lot of stutters and micro freezes last night. Logged out checked the task manager and found a windows component pulling up to 20% of my cpu. closed it down and went back in game and it was smooth as silk. Stupid windows  :furious

What componet was ? :headscratch:
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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: The gumbo of stutters, pauses, freeze and other ingredients
« Reply #166 on: January 07, 2017, 01:11:20 PM »
What componet was ? :headscratch:

mine was an "svhost". I had recently downloaded windows movie maker, and one of the things it wanted to do was to update a few codexs for the viewer. I guess it got hung on one of them and it was continually trying to look for/download some files. 

Offline Bizman

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Re: The gumbo of stutters, pauses, freeze and other ingredients
« Reply #167 on: January 07, 2017, 01:27:27 PM »
If "svchost" is pulling a significant amount of cpu, right click and choose Go to Service(s) (in Win7) or expand it and see which service it refers to. If it's "wuauserv" it's the infamous Windows Update trying to find updates.
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Offline Pudgie

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Re: The gumbo of stutters, pauses, freeze and other ingredients
« Reply #168 on: January 07, 2017, 02:51:45 PM »
Not claiming to understand this completely, but the same problem exists with Nvidia hardware and drivers.

Also, if it is not related to the AH3 client, wouldn't it be a common problem with other games and DX11?  Is it?

Here is a snippet of my Fury X's vitals in which I captured a screen freeze occurance after I had reset MSI AB to record GPU usage% in real form instead of in unified form (simply put unified time is an avg of the GPU usage% real time graphing) so you can clearly see the GPU usage% going to as low as 0% quite frequently (very, very little to no GPU activity) while under an actual AHIII Dx11 gaming use. The screen pause is due to the AMD driver somehow attempting to put the GPU to sleep due to a lack of work for the GPU to do (why the GPU clock speed drop along w\ the GPU FPS drop along w\ the GPU frametiming spike) after a certain amount of time in milliseconds in which the GPU usage% stays at 0. Once the GPU receives some work the driver then wakes the GPU back up then the screen resumes again. Since the rest of the system is still functioning normally (the vid card and driver are as well) you do not get a .dmp file as the OS\AHIII hasn't detected a hard fault occurance. I believe this is also happening w\ Nvidia hardware as well as both use a GPU power\clock speed control scheme (AMD PowerTune\Nvidia GPU Boost) that calculates using driver fed info as to the graphics draw\rendering\AA levels being used and neither does a good job at GPU control when the graphics loads are light.............

Since resetting my MSI AB graphs to show GPU usage % in real time, EVERY screen freeze seen since then is ALWAYS initiated by the GPU usage dropping to 0% (you can see on the graph that the GPU is doing this a LOT). My vid card's Fiji GPU supports ULPS (ultra low power state) which will be invoked when the drivers detect very low GPU loads to save power. Most of the time this shows up when AMD cards are set up in Crossfire (puts the 2nd vid card to sleep) but this "could" have been in effect on my single vid card thus my test by shutting this down and then seeing that this didn't stop the freezes so this indicates to me that this issue is an issue w\ AMD's PowerTune GPU control (Nvidia has a similar GPU control scheme called GPU Boost) which is implemented at the hardware level of the GPU but is fed info thru the drivers so that it can perform it's calculations to "optimize" the GPU.

None of these GPU control schemes whether Nvidia or AMD were tuned to provide decent control when the GPU's are LIGHTLY loaded....only HEAVILY loaded. Since AHIII is using the latest graphics techniques (post processing that offloads the GPU of the heavy rendering\AA work is 1 of them) and is multithreaded to boot, especially when being ran thru Dx11 API, can take much better advantage of Dx11's multithreading capabilities thus can spread out this work much more effectively across multi-core CPU's and can take much better advantage of a GPU's ability to process graphics calls in parallel by breaking up game graphics draw\rendering\AA calls into many threads instead of staying single threaded, this can tend to reduce the necessary amount of CPU\GPU processing time needed to do the same amount of work being multithreaded using multi-cored hardware vs single threaded which cannot take advantage of multi-cored hardware. This is just 1 of the attributes that Dx11 API brings to the table over Dx9 API that can lend to what I'm seeing occur on my box. There are others as well.

It is this lower CPU\GPU loading while under an AHIII game load under Dx11 that is the source of all of this going on (I can say w\ a fairly high degree of accuracy that this is the issue on my box from all the testing that I have done and the evidence provided) and the severity of the issue will depend on the specific computer configuration that AHIII is being run on. This is MUCH more prevalent when the game is running under Dx11 vs Dx9. On my box when I run the very same AHIII game client software using the exact same game settings both in-game and driver level under Dx9 I see none of these issues happening at all.....which points even more specifically to the differences between how the 2 MS Dx API's are handling\processing the game threads (not the AHIII client software itself) that the vid card drivers are then interpreting to then instruct the GPU to process.....the GPU operating loads while running the same AHIII game client software are VERY different w\ Dx9 showing a much heavier CPU\GPU game load than when under Dx11. If the issue was the AHIII game client itself the same issues should show up regardless of which Dx API it ran under. This is not the case on my box.

This can only be really fixed thru the vid card drivers to better control the GPU when they are under light game loads. HTC "could" "fix" this themselves by coding the game to more heavily load the CPU\GPU but that is really counterproductive for a game developer to fix an issue that is really for the vid card driver engineers to address (this is what they, Nvidia & AMD, are actually doing for most of the Tier 1 game developers big game titles so that their games run smoothly on their hardware......but last I checked HTC isn't on either's preferred list to get driver stack development support to ensure that AHIII runs smoothly). So IOW's, not all is equal w\ other game coding and driver support under any Dx API, much less Dx11..........just as not all is equal w\ the computer platforms this game is being used on which can either expose or hide certain anomalies in all aspects of computing from the software developer thru to the user.

This is really a 2-way aspect to be taken into context............not just a 1-sided affair in reality. The result of all my testing has shown for me that this issue rests on the AMD driver engineers to solve for AHIII as it is currently being used w\ Dx11.......which may not happen. At least they can't say they weren't notified as I have sent in a bug notice to AMD concerning this game's issues running on their products\drivers and have gotten a return email that says that they have received it.................all I can do as a user at this point. I have effectively removed all other aspects on my end by either proving that a particular part isn't the cause OR have found other parts of my full system to be in need of either a readjust or a replacement (readjusted Windows Power Plan to eliminate the GPU stutters being caused by my CPU going into low clocks\power state due to low CPU game loads triggering the Intel CEIST to cut CPU clocks\power; replaced a faulty ADSL modem\router w\ a much better unit that now provides full Gigabit LAN speeds, retuned both computer's NIC's to take full advantage of this then rerouted a spare phone line to get our fax machine off the ADSL line so our ADSL line is now a fully dedicated line for all Internet access only.....includes AHIII).

The only item left to solve on my end now is this intermittent screen pausing concerning AHIII and the results of my testing has shown that this issue is not w\ HTC's AHIII client software per se.

All HTC has done is worked their AHIII game code to the point of maximum efficiency, especially under Dx11, that is now starting to show up these types of anomalies that IMHO are the result of lower than "normal" game CPU\GPU loading relative to the Dx API it is run under.

This graph I presented below is pretty telling from my POV....................

 :salute
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Offline Bino

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Re: The gumbo of stutters, pauses, freeze and other ingredients
« Reply #169 on: January 07, 2017, 04:34:05 PM »
The NVidia control panel offers "Power management mode", which, as I understand it, avoids having the driver put the GPU to sleep when under-utilized...





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Offline Chalenge

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Re: The gumbo of stutters, pauses, freeze and other ingredients
« Reply #170 on: January 07, 2017, 04:48:27 PM »
Well, it doesn't throttle power at least.
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Offline Pudgie

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Re: The gumbo of stutters, pauses, freeze and other ingredients
« Reply #171 on: January 07, 2017, 06:55:17 PM »
Just did some more reading & found out that my AMD Fiji GPU also has AMD's ZeroCore tech installed at the hardware level along w\ ULPS (this is another AMD power saving scheme that is designed to shut down a GPU due to low\no GPU usage to conserve power....usually supposed to be activated only w\ Crossfire multi-GPU setups.......comes w\ all AMD GCN desktop GPU's..............).

This may be what is causing the GPU to shut down momentarily due to the GPU going essentially into an idle state from the low game GPU usage% when the GPU usage drops down to 0% and stays there long enough for ZeroCore to initiate the sleep state then wakes the GPU back up after the drivers call for the GPU to do some work.

Read here: http://www.amd.com/PublishingImages/graphics/tables/hi-res/amd-zero-core-power-savings-large.png
http://www.amd.com/en-us/innovations/software-technologies/gcn

The NVidia control panel offers "Power management mode", which, as I understand it, avoids having the driver put the GPU to sleep when under-utilized...

(Image removed from quote.)



AMD Crimson drivers also have a setting that does the same thing.....called Power Efficiency. When enabled the GPU's power is controlled by PowerTune and will give\cut power and GPU clock speeds to the GPU as it's calc's dictate according to the GPU's temp according to the graphics setting levels being used. When disabled (as I use it) the GPU is given full power thus full clocks all the time once a D3D app is detected running unless the GPU's operating temps exceed the upper threshold as set in AMD's PowerTune at which point PowerTune will override and start cutting power\clocks to cool the GPU to keep it below the max TDP (I just found this threshold on my FuryX yesterday since I've finally upgraded MSI AB to vers 4.3.0 which will now work w\ AMD Polaris GPU's thus Radeon WattMan so now all my previous MSI AB controls are now active again....PowerTune starts stepping the GPU back once the GPU temps exceed 68*C w\ max TDP of 75*C...found this by being able to reduce the lower fan speed% now all the way down to 0% due to Radeon WattMan so I have mine set to 10% now which holds the GPU right at the 67*C-68*C temp line to maintain max power levels to the Fiji GPU w\o interference).

I'm getting these screen pauses even w\ the GPU running at full power\clocks so this isn't the culprit, but this ZeroCore just may be what is causing this to happen on my box due to the low GPU usage issue....and there isn't any way to adjust this or access this from Radeon Settings and to date I haven't found anyone who has figured out a way to mod the Crimson drivers and I have set all the Crimson driver settings that do work w\ the AHIII game client to as high of settings that they go to to try to increase the GPU game load but so far have not gotten the screen pauses to stop as I haven't gotten the GPU activity\usage dropoffs to stop dropping to 0%.

These pauses happen very random and fortunately for me very seldom, otherwise the game runs excellent on my box using Dx11. When I installed the new Crimson ReLive 16.12.1 drivers these screen pauses went away when using AHIII under Dx11 and all was good until I upgraded to Crimson ReLive 16.12.2 drivers to get the fixes for ReLive installed....then they came back.

This sealed the deal for me that this was an AMD driver issue, most likely has something to do w\ ZeroCore not working properly but this is seen as normal driver behavior so thus won't trigger a hard fault and a .dmp dump as long as this doesn't cause the game\OS to crash....which it shouldn't. As of right now this can only be fixed by AMD.......if this is the culprit at hand.

Until I can find a surefire way to disable this ZeroCore to then test this......................... ...........

 :salute
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Offline Bino

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Re: The gumbo of stutters, pauses, freeze and other ingredients
« Reply #172 on: January 08, 2017, 06:14:07 AM »
"...all was good until I upgraded to Crimson ReLive 16.12.2 drivers..."

Can you revert to the earlier version?


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Offline Pudgie

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Re: The gumbo of stutters, pauses, freeze and other ingredients
« Reply #173 on: January 08, 2017, 02:33:53 PM »
"...all was good until I upgraded to Crimson ReLive 16.12.2 drivers..."

Can you revert to the earlier version?


Hi Bino,

Yes I could reinstall the 16.12.1 drivers but most likely I won't do so as the fixes to AMD's ReLive software is more important to me as of this time and it's too easy to just run AHIII under Dx9 to get away from the screen pause issue as I don't have\use a VR headset (the main reason to run AHIII Dx11 version). The ReLive fixes were the main motivation behind me upgrading to the current drivers as I'm gonna use this more in the future.

As far as running AHIII Dx11 goes, the current issue isn't a show stopper for me as it currently is as I've stated that these pauses occur very random and very seldom so I'm just biding my time.

HTC (or eventually AMD) will resolve this little issue 1 way or another.

 :salute
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Offline Vulcan

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Re: The gumbo of stutters, pauses, freeze and other ingredients
« Reply #174 on: January 08, 2017, 02:43:27 PM »
my AMD Fiji GPU

Your GPU might be running on Island Time   :devil

Offline popeye

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Re: The gumbo of stutters, pauses, freeze and other ingredients
« Reply #175 on: January 08, 2017, 06:35:07 PM »
Diving on field ack....  freeze...  auger.   :bhead

Sure hope this is fixed soon. 

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Offline JimmyD3

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Re: The gumbo of stutters, pauses, freeze and other ingredients
« Reply #176 on: January 08, 2017, 11:25:22 PM »
Anyone having a problem uploading a zip file???
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Offline Pudgie

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Re: The gumbo of stutters, pauses, freeze and other ingredients
« Reply #177 on: January 09, 2017, 10:08:21 PM »
Hi Bino,

Yes I could reinstall the 16.12.1 drivers but most likely I won't do so as the fixes to AMD's ReLive software is more important to me as of this time and it's too easy to just run AHIII under Dx9 to get away from the screen pause issue as I don't have\use a VR headset (the main reason to run AHIII Dx11 version). The ReLive fixes were the main motivation behind me upgrading to the current drivers as I'm gonna use this more in the future.

As far as running AHIII Dx11 goes, the current issue isn't a show stopper for me as it currently is as I've stated that these pauses occur very random and very seldom so I'm just biding my time.

HTC (or eventually AMD) will resolve this little issue 1 way or another.

 :salute

Update:

When I got on my box this evening and opened Radeon Settings I had a notification that there was a new driver update available. Checked and found that the new driver wasn't a new Crimson version (ie Crimson 16.12.3) but an updated version of the current Crimson 16.12.2 drivers........? 1st time I've seen this................

So to entertain myself I checked off for the AMD installer to update the driver.........installer started up and asked if I wanted it to do a clean install....which I said yes then it asked me if I wanted to do an express install or a custom install..........of course I clicked on custom install then picked the 3 parts I've always picked...drivers, Radeon Settings & Vulkan. Then the installer took off & performed a clean uninstall, reboot then clean installed my choices. After this was done then the installer asked if I wanted to install ReLive, which I clicked yes then it installed ReLive then once this was done it asked if I wanted to restart which I said yes then it rebooted my box and all came up clean showing Radeon Crimson 16.12.2 drivers. Opened Radeon Settings & checked all settings........installer saved all previous settings in Radeon Settings AND ReLive. All looking good so far..................

Went in game using Dx11 and have been flying around for the last 1hr..........so far all has been looking good and the main thing............haven't witnessed a screen pause yet.

Will keep playing\testing but so far all is looking good w\ no runs, drips or errors......................

Let's see if this stays this way..........................

Kinda makes me curious to know if AMD has responded to the feedback that I sent in...........also wondering if I wasn't the only 1........

So far, so good......................... .....

FYI...................

 :salute

PS---Driver update was the Radeon Crimson 16.12.2 WHQL version.........Installer updated the Crimson 16.12.2 Hotfix version..................

FYI..........................

 :salute
« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 11:22:45 PM by Pudgie »
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Offline Pudgie

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Re: The gumbo of stutters, pauses, freeze and other ingredients
« Reply #178 on: January 11, 2017, 08:03:49 PM »
Update:

Witnessed my 1st screen pause just a few minutes ago since the driver upgrade yesterday playing AHIII using Dx11....................snipp et provided below.

This time the GPU usage was recorded at 100% when this occurred instead of the 0% for all screen pause events prior to this 1 so this is a new twist to the same scenario on my box. GPU usage pattern is still showing the GPU usage to drop off fairly frequent.....still dropping to 0% as well. I haven't gone into registry and disabled ULPS yet (which is supposed to also disable ZeroCore, but............) to see if this stops the issue w\ these drivers............

Will continue to test this further to see if current pattern of occurance holds up before making any changes.

 :salute
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Offline RELIC

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Re: The gumbo of stutters, pauses, freeze and other ingredients
« Reply #179 on: January 14, 2017, 12:50:32 PM »
Still getting stutters but not as badly.  I discovered my system was constantly trying to download Windows updates and fixed that issue which may have helped.  The stutters I am currently getting all occur when someone keys up and talks on vox.  If nobody is talking on vox the game is smooooooth.
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