Author Topic: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom  (Read 16578 times)

Offline Vraciu

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #135 on: January 19, 2017, 07:14:37 PM »
I guess the Mirage 2000 doesn't count either.  :rolleyes:  As "pure" a delta wing you can get.



For the purposes of this discussion IRT drag "Delta" = Mirage III, Mirage 2000, Mirage 4000, F-102, F-106, etc., not F-4, F-16, F-15, MiG-21, etc.


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Offline Oldman731

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #136 on: January 19, 2017, 09:29:45 PM »
Gman, while on active duty I met a Colonel who flew the Hustler.  He said it would do high Mach (upwards of Mach 2 as I recall) all day long at low altitude.  He also mentioned that if it lost an engine at high Mach, the resulting yaw would be catastrophic.  When everything was working correctly, it was a joy to fly, according to him.


Summer of 1972 I was AFROTC at Plattsburgh AFB (New York).  They had a wing of KC135s and another of FB-111s.  At the time, the FB-111s were fairly new, and fairly rare (most of those loser planes went to TAC).  Seemed to me that about 1/3 of the 111 pilots were ex-B52 people, and the remainder ex-58s.  I would ask the 58 people, "So how does this plane compare to your old B-58?"  They would put on the Official Face and say, "Well, of course the 111 is far more advanced, with terrain-following radar and digital avionics and variable-sweep wings."  I would just look at them, and they would relax and say things like, "Of course, there's nothing like the push you used to get on takeoff with the 58.  That was something to remember!"  One of them said that on scramble from the alert shack, they would still be starting some of their engines during the takeoff roll.  Even the wing exec, who was obligated to host a couple of us for one meal, got that faraway look in his eyes when speaking of the B-58.  I had no doubt in my mind that they missed that plane.

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Offline Puma44

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #137 on: January 19, 2017, 09:36:23 PM »
By the way, the Six also had a curved leading edge.




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Offline eagl

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #138 on: January 20, 2017, 12:00:21 AM »
Skuzzy,

It's semantics at this point, but the broad approach I was taught dealt with wing design almost like a series of families or categories of wing shapes.  Straight unswept without taper would in general behave like *this*, swept would behave like *this*, add taper to the chord and *this* happens, thin the airfoil out towards the tip to address *this* performance drawback which results in *this* other thing...  A "delta" wing was merely a roughly triangular shape that would have basic characteristics that were similar and predictable to all "delta" shapes.  So you could either pick a generic planform based on the performance characteristics you wanted when you were designing a plane, or if you had an existing design you were trying to test or characterize, you could predict various performance and behavior modes just by looking at the shape and airfoil, and make some assumptions as you started collecting hard data to refine the predictive models, come up with stability augmentation laws, or whatever.

I can look at the planform of any opponent's fighter, and just from looking at the planform view make a good guess as to how I want to fight it, what its good at, and what it sucks at.  Without anyone telling me, I can look at a mirage 2000 and know it has one awesome bat-turn that would be deadly at the merge, and it can probably cruise very fast and efficiently with a fairly heavy loadout.  But in a sustained turn I can probably out rate it unless I get way too slow as well.  The mig-21 has great low speed handling so don't try to win a flat scissors against one, because he can roll faster than I can at low speeds and he can probably get some good AOA to point the nose even when slow, but he'll be bleeding speed fast if he keeps pulling.

Just look at the differences between a spitfire with elliptical wingtips and a cropped-tip spitty.  The elliptical planform has very low drag and good handling up to the stall, but the stall almost immediately makes the ailerons useless because of where the flow separation begins on that kind of wing.  Crop the tips and you get a completely different (and predictable) set of behaviors in various flight regimes.  Adding winglets is another way you can have a very wide variety of wingtip shapes, but they all do things like change the lift distribution across the span and increase loading on the outboard wing, in addition to reducing wingtip vortice drag.  The exact shape doesn't matter when considering what ought to happen, you get certain performance changes almost no matter what the actual winglet looks like.  The shape DOES matter when you need to know how much things have changed, but only in terms of how much each aero characteristic is changed by the presence or absence of the wingtip device.

And that's because wing shapes can be understood in terms of very broadly defined categories, and you can make a good guess as to how it'll fly in general.  Knowing this, you can even predict what happens when the general shape is modified in some way.  Like putting swept and cropped wingtips on an F-15 for the area that has the ailerons, you get some behaviors of a delta wing but the wing will have some of the airflow characteristics of a swept wing over just the ailerons and wingtips.  They started with a delta wing shape, and modified it to achieve certain behaviors.

Does that make any sense or are we talking in circles still?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 12:09:32 AM by eagl »
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Offline eagl

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #139 on: January 20, 2017, 12:06:54 AM »
Regarding the B-58 performance down low...  Remembering when it was originally designed and the materials available at the time, my suspicion is that low altitude speed would be significantly limited by airframe heating.  The F-111 had a simple temperature overheat light on the panel.  You could take the F-111 about as fast as you wanted down low, until that light came on. Then you slowed down or risked structural damage/failure. 

I don't know for sure and don't know any B-58 pilots I could ask, but I suspect that they had the same issue to deal with during sprints.

And it isn't just low altitude... I know an F-15E driver who took a clean F-15E up past mach 2 out by Nellis.  He was pretty high, at least in the high 30k+ or 40k+ region, and he took it up to around 2.2 if I recall correctly.  When he pulled the throttles back to slow back down, the engine controllers flipped him the bird and the motors remained in full burner.  The engine controllers probably knew that the motor was only marginally stable at that point and any reduction in thrust would cause a damaging compressor stall.  He had to fly a series of descending S-turns still doing well over mach 2 in full afterburner until he got low enough for the engine controllers to throttle the motors back down.  Heading back to base, he noticed that he couldn't receive the usual navaid stations, and had to get vectors for his approach to the field.  After landing, he discovered that he had melted a couple antennas completely off the plane and deformed other bits and pieces that stuck out from the airframe.

So... my *guess* is that the B-58 had some airframe heating limitations down low, but I can't verify that.


« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 12:10:29 AM by eagl »
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Offline eagl

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #140 on: January 20, 2017, 12:16:41 AM »
Back on topic... I read somewhere that the F-4 Phantom wing had no "max" speed. The wing shape and airfoil was good to well beyond limitations imposed by other parts of the plane or the materials the plane was made of.  But if you made the wing out of unobtanium and the motors were good to mach 5, the wing would still work predictably.  At least that's what I heard, not sure if its true or not.

BUT... its still a significant achievement.  A great many earlier planes were speed restricted due to the formation of shock waves or other instability due to the wing design.  The F-4 was apparently unique in that unlike most other earlier planes, the max speed wasn't set based on when the wing started acting badly.  No control reversion/reversal, no locked controls due to shock wave formation, no unreasonable changes in pitching moment, no tail blanking, etc.

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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #141 on: January 20, 2017, 02:23:57 AM »
For the purposes of this discussion IRT drag "Delta" = Mirage III, Mirage 2000, Mirage 4000, F-102, F-106, etc., not F-4, F-16, F-15, MiG-21, etc.

Then why did you claim "they're not used"? You're contradicting yourself.

Not true.  Pure delta wings are notorious for high drag particularly at lower speeds.   This is why they're not used.
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #142 on: January 20, 2017, 03:05:26 AM »
Greek Mirage 2000 owning a Turkish F-16C. The "pure" delta-winged Mirage can certainly hang with a Viper.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hLsWKrEAhM
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Offline DaveBB

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #143 on: January 20, 2017, 03:51:13 AM »
Greek Mirage 2000 owning a Turkish F-16C. The "pure" delta-winged Mirage can certainly hang with a Viper.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hLsWKrEAhM

That's just two delta-winged aircraft fighting each other.  Tailless delta vs cropped delta. 
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #144 on: January 20, 2017, 04:03:16 AM »
That's just two delta-winged aircraft fighting each other.  Tailless delta vs cropped delta.

Indeed, but Vraciu insists that the "pure" delta can't turn worth a damn.
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #145 on: January 20, 2017, 05:27:38 AM »
...
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 06:43:27 AM by PR3D4TOR »
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Offline Skuzzy

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #146 on: January 20, 2017, 06:07:52 AM »
<snip>
Does that make any sense or are we talking in circles still?

Perfect.  Thank you eagl.
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Offline Puma44

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #147 on: January 20, 2017, 08:08:57 AM »
Excellent overview Eagl!  Thanks!



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Offline DaveBB

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #148 on: January 20, 2017, 03:34:13 PM »
Question:  Do the F-14 and B-1b have delta wing flight characteristics with wing fully swept?
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #149 on: January 20, 2017, 03:41:10 PM »
Yes.  :aok

One of the major advantages to the swing-wing concept. Delta-wing characteristics + swept-wing characteristics + straight wing characteristics, whenever the pilot wanted.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 03:43:38 PM by PR3D4TOR »
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