A thought on "balance" for FSO Götterdämmerung - The Fall of Berlin

[oakranger]

Actually,  there was.

IDK,  the only time axis brought up about setup was the first time we used the B-29.  There was no max alt, I believe, for the B-29s.  Axis had a hell of a time trying to fight over 30k...especially against P-47N.  What the CMs did the next time we had the same scenario was established max alt on the B-29 to 20k or 25k.  The result was axis victory.   

But most of the late war PTO was not won by one side.  Surprisingly some of them was won by allies or small victory.  This whole mention about late war rides on axis side and people only join in on dose not support with a lot of the late war scenarios result. That's just from what I am observing so far.

[waystin2]

IDK,  the only time axis brought up about setup was the first time we used the B-29.  There was no max alt, I believe, for the B-29s.  Axis had a hell of a time trying to fight over 30k...especially against P-47N.  What the CMs did the next time we had the same scenario was established max alt on the B-29 to 20k or 25k.  The result was axis victory.   

But most of the late war PTO was not won by one side.  Surprisingly some of them was won by allies or small victory.  This whole mention about late war rides on axis side and people only join in on dose not support with a lot of the late war scenarios result. That's just from what I am observing so far.

Hello Oaktree,

Flown near you for years Sir.  I do want you to know that Pigs are not loyal to Axis or Allies in FSO, it's just where we are assigned for this camp.  If the Pigs were assigned Allies this past camp then I guarantee you we would be planning on putting some Luftwaffe pelts on the wall.  Results of the last two frames has nothing to do with devotees to a side, or the write-up.  CO's were aware of what they were getting their squads into before we started.  If you don't like the setup then gripe at your CO, he should have said something.  I go in every frame with the intent to win and I stick to my original comments that any given Friday is decided by turnout, CIC planning command and control, and the performance of squadrons on a each side.  The Allies have the opportunity to win Frame 3 unless they give up before it starts.  

See you up there,

Way

[oakranger]

I was in deep thought over lunch about the heated debate of this scenario and I think I know why a lot of concerns over everything that has been brought up.  It is the number of people that took part.
Hear me out on this.  The last time FSO ran Götterdämmerung was in 2011.  The outcome was axis victory but not one sided victory from frame to frame.  However, two important facts; there was approximant over 375 player combined and nobody express their concerns over the set-up.  Here is the link to show that.
The current Götterdämmerung has approximant 215 combine players.  It is a challenge for the CiC to make a plan when you only have 100 or so people.  Trying to balance on who CAP, escort and bomber at the same time meeting the require min/max of rides, bases to defend and attack.  There just not enough breathing room.  With the 2011 setup the CiC had around 190 players give enough breathing room to plan out the event. 
With such low numbers one squad would be faced against an overwhelming number of cons.  I been in that situation on both ends and I understand the frustration.  And I am sure many of you been in similar situation like that.  It’s just not as fun as it used to be when we have large number of players.
With that, I am stepping back on my concerned over the set-up and push on trying to get numbers back up in FSO.  How many of you been flying FSO going back 2008.  We have over 500 people.  It was a blast and not a duel moment.  How many of you would want that again?  I certainly do.

[Devil 505]

With that, I am stepping back on my concerned over the set-up and push on trying to get numbers back up in FSO.  How many of you been flying FSO going back 2008.  We have over 500 people.  It was a blast and not a duel moment.  How many of you would want that again?  I certainly do.

 

Götterdämmerung 2011 was my first ever FSO and I've been an addict ever since.

[Becinhu]

Also in 2008 squad average size was in the 15-20 range whereas today that is a mega squad in FSO. Those FSOs were white knuckle for the full two hours.


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[Dantoo]

While I am not specifically opposed to changing the fuel burn, I still think the real issue is one of execution.

The Allies don't have to blast off at T+0 and fly around in circles at full throttle and make it easy for the Axis to come in at T+55.

I ordered my La-7's to sit on the runway a full 10 minutes with engines off and after takeoff used fuel conservation techniques once airborne.

Another method is to reposition to a base behind the front, refuel and wait/head back to the defense area.

But every frame I see a mad rush to get airborne when it doesn't make sense from a fuel conservation standpoint.

I would also love to see some 100 mile tower only radar in FSO so maybe the fight would move away from designated targets a bit. And it gives the dead guys something interesting to do, playing AWACS for his pals.

Dawger while you were ordering those planes to sit on the runway for 10 minutes...had you taken full account of your own pre-planning or more essentially, the pre-planning of your CIC?  It might not make sense from a fuel conversation standpoint but sure as heck it makes sense from a "defending the assets" standpoint.

In the 2nd frame (it was worse in the 1st) a FW190-A8 could have taken off at A4 and dropped a bomb at A13 just 8 minutes later!  The A8 is the Axis' slowest ride.  In both frames combat could have started at H+4.  Yes, I did fly it offline as I'm sure all COs do every week when receiving their orders.

I have pushing for the fuel burn change not because I think that fuel can't be managed in flight effectively, but because there is a "perception" that the VVS planes simply can't make it through an hour with sufficient fuel to fight.  That perception clearly extends across both sides in this FSO.  It hurts both sides as well as the event.
A simple change in the setup and we can remove the silly perception and get back to jousting in the arena rather than have two sides 30 miles apart avoiding combat for an hour.

[LilMak]

I don't think the problem is the fuel burn. To be honest, I prefer to have some limitations. Range was a real problem in the war and it should be in FSO as well. The primary imbalance occurs with the bombers IMO. The Axis have a jet bomber that can make multiple passes without the need of escorts which frees up a large amount of Luft fighter aircraft to simply become hunters who can loiter until the Russian aircraft have to refuel. This effectively lets the Luftwaffe stack up the defense or release a large number of squads to simply destroy enemy wherever they are found. As a matter of fact, the Axis don't have to field a single bomber but the Allies have to devote a minimum of 12. That, in and of itself, stacks the deck against the Allies.

[Dawger]

Dawger while you were ordering those planes to sit on the runway for 10 minutes...had you taken full account of your own pre-planning or more essentially, the pre-planning of your CIC?  It might not make sense from a fuel conversation standpoint but sure as heck it makes sense from a "defending the assets" standpoint.

In the 2nd frame (it was worse in the 1st) a FW190-A8 could have taken off at A4 and dropped a bomb at A13 just 8 minutes later!  The A8 is the Axis' slowest ride.  In both frames combat could have started at H+4.  Yes, I did fly it offline as I'm sure all COs do every week when receiving their orders.

I have pushing for the fuel burn change not because I think that fuel can't be managed in flight effectively, but because there is a "perception" that the VVS planes simply can't make it through an hour with sufficient fuel to fight.  That perception clearly extends across both sides in this FSO.  It hurts both sides as well as the event.
A simple change in the setup and we can remove the silly perception and get back to jousting in the arena rather than have two sides 30 miles apart avoiding combat for an hour.

Its pretty easy to look at the map and calculate the earliest possible arrival for an enemy strike. You don't actually need to fly it.

So, yes, I considered the possibility that the Axis could try to strike fast and then dismissed it. It would be a poor strategy for them to employ since they know the predilection for immediate takeoff in FSO in general and the reward for an early strike is minimal when compared to the very real possibility of trapping the bulk of the Allied defense on the refuel pad at T+55.

You plan for what is most likely and counter it or you are doomed to be weak everywhere, as the Allies are this series.

We are getting our butts kicked because we deserve it.

[Spikes]

As a matter of fact, the Axis don't have to field a single bomber but the Allies have to devote a minimum of 12.

I don't really think a minimum was necessary for the 234 because it would be extremely difficult for the Axis to bomb anything of decent hardness if they didn't use bombers. The same argument can be had for the 262s, why would a minimum be necessary for them? A side gets 262s and decides not to use them? LOL.

[snakeplissken]

Ok.  So from what I gleaned from the discussion, for Frame 3 I build the arena so that the entire Allied force gets B-29's.  I set town hardness to .01 to simulate low-yield nukes.  The entire Axis force gets 262's and we set the game clock to 02:05 am (just after the bars close).  We will call it: GOTDAMMITTHATWASLOUD! 

[Kanth]

+1

Ok.  So from what I gleaned from the discussion, for Frame 3 I build the arena so that the entire Allied force gets B-29's.  I set town hardness to .01 to simulate low-yield nukes.  The entire Axis force gets 262's and we set the game clock to 02:05 am (just after the bars close).  We will call it: GOTDAMMITTHATWASLOUD! 

[captain1ma]

+1

[puller]

Ok.  So from what I gleaned from the discussion, for Frame 3 I build the arena so that the entire Allied force gets B-29's.  I set town hardness to .01 to simulate low-yield nukes.  The entire Axis force gets 262's and we set the game clock to 02:05 am (just after the bars close).  We will call it: GOTDAMMITTHATWASLOUD! 

  very nice brother 

[nooby52]

Ok.  So from what I gleaned from the discussion, for Frame 3 I build the arena so that the entire Allied force gets B-29's.  I set town hardness to .01 to simulate low-yield nukes.  The entire Axis force gets 262's and we set the game clock to 02:05 am (just after the bars close).  We will call it: GOTDAMMITTHATWASLOUD! 

Now he gets it. 

[Sabre]

Situation awareness.  The 234 people failed to check their six, low and high, to allowed them self get shot down.   You can easy dive away from a La7 and Yak in a 234.

I was in 234's with the AK's. I was in the bombsite as the La's appeared, so didn't see them immediately as they dropped in on us. Following my drop, I wasted a few precious moments using pan-view to try to see my bomb impacts, instead of looking for cons like I should have (yep, I was being a danged tourist!). When the first rounds whizzed past, I put my nose down and held down the trigger for the tail-guns and was out of range in a handful of seconds. One of my drones had an engine hit with oil leak, but the engine remained operational long enough to get me clear. Even with the 234's speed advantage in the dive, it's not unreasonable to have some losses. It's just a question of geometry. The La's happened to be on the correct side of the bomb-run, where the buffs were committed to their bomb runs. Good scenario, and a load of fun. My only complaint is that my drones (even the undamaged one) disappeared while I re-armed for my second strike, so it was a single-plane bomb run (still took a FH down; no doubt it was softened up by another player). Hope to make it this Friday for the frame three.