Author Topic: Please rate "Hell Over the Hinterland" scenario  (Read 4500 times)

Offline waystin2

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Re: Please rate "Hell Over the Hinterland" scenario
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2017, 03:42:18 PM »
+2
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Offline SIM

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Re: Please rate "Hell Over the Hinterland" scenario
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2017, 04:16:01 PM »
Lets see......



What scenario?


You mean that 4 saturday snapshot?


Scenario from a spreadsheet....what a damn waste.

Offline Shuffler

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Re: Please rate "Hell Over the Hinterland" scenario
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2017, 04:43:32 PM »
LOL I actually said that in the scenario. It felt more like a Snap Shot.

I enjoy Scenarios when I can fly them. This one I would give a 0.
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Offline Flossy

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Re: Please rate "Hell Over the Hinterland" scenario
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2017, 06:39:54 PM »
+5
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Offline Wiley

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Re: Please rate "Hell Over the Hinterland" scenario
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2017, 07:12:18 PM »
surely your Luft superiors were at fault for that and not the design team?   


Well, technically I think the root cause is survival bonuses.  Sometimes people seem to have a tendency to move awfully far down the "preserve your aircraft" path.  Just my $0.02.

On the flipside, I don't like stupid suicidal gameplay either, so I don't quite know where the balance is.

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Offline KCDitto

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Re: Please rate "Hell Over the Hinterland" scenario
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2017, 08:14:28 PM »
Yea I agree with SIM and Shuffler

It was a snapshot with the same thing 4 Saturdays in a row.


Offline HB555

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Re: Please rate "Hell Over the Hinterland" scenario
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2017, 08:27:09 PM »
+2. Needed more Lufties for bomber interdiction. Finns were awesome, and the Axis that we did see gave it a good shot, but 5 or 6 bombers scoring the fewest points for the Allied side seemed pretty weird. I'd fly it again though.

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Offline Hajo

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Re: Please rate "Hell Over the Hinterland" scenario
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2017, 01:03:34 PM »
Folks I am just posting this as an outsider.  Impartial observer.  Being outside I've had time to look at the Scenario as a whole.  And how it is now designed and fought.  I no longer have an account and I doubt I will return in the future.
This is of no consequence, I just tired of the game.  Which eventually will happen to each and every one of you.  I still have a deep passion for the History of what actually occurred in the skies over Europe during WWII.  That will never
change.

So......food for thought.  There are some huge problems that I can see now as being troublesome.  Again, I have no axe to grind or a dog in the hunt.  What I have to say is of little consequence as I am no longer a member of the Community.
Consequently I do not wish or expect a reply.  This is just food for thought as I stated above.  Think as you wish.

1.)  Attendance:  Very low numbers. For instance.  In DGS I had almost half as many (25) in my P47 squadron as you had participate in this Scenario.  The same could be said for all axis and allied squadrons.
At that time we had to increase Squadron size because of those on both sides wanting to participate.  Someone mentioned Snap Shot.  At this time it appears that is what a Scenario has become.  Remember
everyone has access to these Boards.  What has been posted can actually deter someone new, or older in age from participating.  The childishness and name calling can be a deterrent.

2.) Design:  Don't blame the Designers.  Blame it instead on the Community.  Not what is said or the name calling.  The Community as a whole does not participate in numbers as they have in the past.  For instance
if memory serves we had more participants in fighters in DGS in four allied squadrons then we've had in the past three or four, maybe more scenarios.  Not including Axis fighters and entire Bomb Groups.  Now why
do you expect a designer to develop a scenario with a map larger then the one you just fought over?  You hold the design to the limitations.  The design is limited or handcuffed by the low turnout of players.  That is why
fighting occurs chiefly in one grid.  Limits.  There aren't enough participants to enlarge anything.  If the map were larger with the low numbers everyone could go into auto level and take a nap. So the design is effected
by what a mere maybe 80 players can accomplish as opposed to between the 200 and 300 we used to have in participants.

3.)  Gaming.  As always everything changes.  In the past most of us who got into flight sims were more interested in the History.  Hey!  Things change.  Now with the advent of cell phones, iPads etc. we have instantaneous
information.  Society has changed a great deal in the past 15 years or so.  Instant gratification is now the norm.  I am not saying it is good or bad, but patience seems to be becoming rare.  Now everyone gets a trophy.
As an impartial observer, to me the great MMOG combat flight sim has become a first person shooter.  With stars awarded and advertisements when landing the whole world can read.  I don't think there was a HUD in Gabby's
P47 and one in the control tower that read "Gabreski has landed 5 kills in his P47D25 of the 56th fighter Squadron." AH is a game period.  The only time it is elevated is in a so called Scenario.  There are no more Scenarios.
The game just doesn't have enough people interested to actually participate in a Scenario.  This definitely handcuffs the design and causes angst amongst the participants.  It is the Community that is at fault not the designers.

Again I have nothing to gain as I have left the Community. What my thoughts are, are of little consequence to the Community.  It is the Community that has a great deal to gain.  Decide what YOU want.  It is the Community that either makes it succeed or fail.  Melee or Special Event.  It's up to you.   
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Offline Joker

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Re: Please rate "Hell Over the Hinterland" scenario
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2017, 02:09:59 PM »
+3

I had a great time and will fly the next one if possible.
The scores suggest that the Axis was at a significant disadvantage, with multiple reasons voiced here.
In the end though, I got to fly with a great new group of folks, and a few of the air battles were pretty intense. :aok
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Offline Brooke

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Re: Please rate "Hell Over the Hinterland" scenario
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2017, 03:37:34 PM »
I just tired of the game.  Which eventually will happen to each and every one of you.

Not me!   :aok

I've been flying online since 1988 and look forward to a lot more from here.   :banana:

(Still wishing you would join us in some scenarios, though, one day.)

Offline SIM

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Re: Please rate "Hell Over the Hinterland" scenario
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2017, 04:02:55 PM »
See Rule #4
« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 11:14:42 AM by Skuzzy »

Offline Phast12

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Re: Please rate "Hell Over the Hinterland" scenario
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2017, 04:05:44 PM »
   0 Rating
   I have only been flying with the community for a little over a year and have flown most of scenario's since i started. I was fully over this scenario before it started. The issues with the plane set and overal scenario plan have been beat to death so i won't go into them. Maybe i am imagining it but, there seems to be a progression in the last couple of scenario's where the Axis has been handicaped further and further.
   I ended up flying two frames in this scenario because of the numbers issues for the Axis side i saw, I was not going to fly in it at all. My hope would be that in future scenario's we simplify the scoring and allow both sides to beat the snot out of each other with as balanced of sides as possible.
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Offline Brooke

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Re: Please rate "Hell Over the Hinterland" scenario
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2017, 04:16:10 PM »
1.)  Attendance:  Very low numbers. For instance.  In DGS I had almost half as many (25) in my P47 squadron as you had participate in this Scenario.

As you say, that does make it hard to balance things.

With 40 guys vs. 40 guys, variability in outcome is higher than if you have 150 vs. 150, and a few guys performing as outliers have a bigger effect.

Also, it is just very hard to numerically balance.  +/- a few guys now is significant.  +/- 3 is +/- 10% of a 30-person fighter force.  Being 4 guys down in a 10-person attack effort is a 40% reduction of your scoring ability.

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3.)  Gaming. 

I do also think that folks get too hung up who got more points and the idea that scenarios need to be perfectly balanced.  Scenarios can't be perfectly balanced -- they will always have different things on one side than the other.  Most historical battles involved one side having a lot more aircraft than the other.  Scenarios -- even ones folks think are not balanced -- are way more balanced than the historical battle they are themed on.  I balance them as best I can figure, but that will always have a lot of variability in it.

Offline Brooke

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Re: Please rate "Hell Over the Hinterland" scenario
« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2017, 04:35:17 PM »
   Maybe i am imagining it but, there seems to be a progression in the last couple of scenario's where the Axis has been handicaped further and further.

Tunisia 1943.  The axis won all four phases by a large margin.
Battle of the Dnieper.  Draw.

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My hope would be that in future scenario's we simplify the scoring

This scenario has a simple scoring system compared to the collection of all scenarios.  It is just 1 point per kill and X points per object destroyed, which is about as simple as we can go for a scenario.  Players themselves can score it from the published log without a lot of effort.  There are many scenarios in the past where a player could not score it, as it was based on more than shows up in the public log, or would take a large amount of work.

Here are all past scenarios and writeups, which includes scoring systems:
http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/scenarios.html

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and allow both sides to beat the snot out of each other with as balanced of sides as possible.

That is always the goal.  It was the goal with this one, too.

Offline tudza

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Re: Please rate "Hell Over the Hinterland" scenario
« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2017, 07:00:59 PM »

From an Allied bomber view I'd say +3. 

The first three frames we had lots of fighter cover and not too much opposition.  It was stroll in, drop on target, fly back.

Frame 4 was more like it though. Fighter cover but lots of enemy fighters attacking.  Had to man guns and do some serious shooting.  Took damage and limped home, if possible.  Not sure what changed, but the last frame was what I expect from scenario bombing.