June, 2017 Scenario design discussion

[KCDitto]

OK,

A couple points here.

 My books show that I  II  III / JG11 were flying FW190s during this time period, or transitioning to them. There were a couple of pilots who flew 109s as a matter of choice but the units had 190s.

You know this is a favorite set up, why do you have 6 seats? All air forces were flying the finger four formation by this time. That would call for 8 or 4? 6 is just an odd number   

I know if you set JG11 in 190s I can fill 8  None of my guys are interested in G-6 vs P-51s and P-38s

So give JG26 8 and have a JG11 with 4 190s, your numbers are still balanced and I can fill that group for sure. I would rather fly with 3 of MY GUYS then 5 walk-ons

Thanks

Ditto

[Devil 505]

I guess I'm looking for an example from past scenarios built around 17s and 24s where the Axis has struggled?  Generally the bomber guys are the ones who don't make it through the entire scenario because they get tired of dying.   

I don't recall any where the LW got pounded but am more than willing to hear if that has been the case.  I'm looking at DGS, DGS II, BoG as my examples.   I'm not sure how counting drones adds up to more pilots.  From a LW perspective, it seems like that just means more targets

For a proper AH Scenario(TM) look at BOWL. Overall, the Axis struggled to compete with the Allies. Yes the bombers were hit, sometimes very hard, but that event was FAR from balanced - and the scoring system was FUBAR to boot.

The data I collected was for FSO but the larger sample size provides a clearer picture of the problem. There was also another FSO run this past February that fits what you are looking for - and the results there also fit the pattern in my link.

[Brooke]

For a proper AH Scenario(TM) look at BOWL. Overall, the Axis struggled to compete with the Allies. Yes the bombers were hit, sometimes very hard, but ...

Here are ratios of the scenarios that are appropriate for what we are doing, where DF:AF = (defending fighters, i.e., Luftwaffe)/(attacking fighters, i.e., allied); B:F = (num bomber pilots)/(num fighters); E/B = (excess defending fighters)/(bomber pilots) = (DF - AF)/(AB).

BOG, AB = 54, AF = 144; DF = 176; DF:AF = 1.22; B:F = 0.38; E/B = 0.60
DGS II, AF = 160, AB = 54; DF = 200; DF:AF = 1.25; B:F = 0.34; E/B = 0.74
DGS, AF = 164, AB = 57; DF = 192; DF:AF = 1.17; B:F = 0.35; E/B = 0.49
BOWL, AF = 74, AB = 36; DF = 80; DF:AF = 1.08; B:F = 0.49; E/B = 0.17

It is clear why BOWL was harder on the axis, and BOWL ratios are not what we have in Big Week.

[Guppy35]

For a proper AH Scenario(TM) look at BOWL. Overall, the Axis struggled to compete with the Allies. Yes the bombers were hit, sometimes very hard, but that event was FAR from balanced - and the scoring system was FUBAR to boot.

The data I collected was for FSO but the larger sample size provides a clearer picture of the problem. There was also another FSO run this past February that fits what you are looking for - and the results there also fit the pattern in my link.

That would hardly be one I'd compare to BoG or either DGS II with 17s and 24s.  And I was flying an F8 in that one.  26s are a different animal than 17s and 24s.  Also the LW had an offensive part they had to deal with, not just getting fighters in position to stop bombers.  No Spits, Tempests etc in any of the 8th AF runs as well.
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I understand what you are suggesting.  I just don't see it as applicable to a higher alt 8th AF vs the LW fight.  The bombers have always tended to get clobbered

[Brooke]

OK, next version is up (v3).

http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/201706_BigWeek/rules.html

Tried to get groups to be size 8 when possible.  Let me know if you want me to rename any of the groups as long as the renaming is appropriate.

Gave axis 40% more FW 190's than BOG frame 1.

The ratios for Big Week are those of BOG.

[Brooke]

Allied pilots that are essentially untouchable in combat.

Bah humbug. 

[Devil 505]

Bah humbug. 

I was referring specifically to the P-51. Also still pictures are not that great without context. What was that Pony doing when you popped on his six? I bet you did not get there 1v1 or his squad only vs your squad only. Also, nice G-14.

Any insight as to the real content of my full post you quoted a single remark from? Seems to me you cherry-picked the least important item.

[Brooke]

Also in frame 1 of BOG, the P-51B's got a 0.66 K:D.

In frame 2, the P-51B's got a 2:1 K:D (pretty good) -- but that qualified only as an average Luftwaffe group, where there were several at 2:1 and some at 3:1.

In frame 3, the P-51B's got a 1.5:1 K:D (decent) -- but average Luftwaffe was 1.8:1 K:D.

So, I do not think P-51B's are untouchable.

[Devil 505]

Again, context is everything. If a pony driver got killed by a G-6 that pilot messed up somewhere or was very unlucky. Also, I'm sure that many of those kills by the Luftwaffe were bombers.

But like I said before the P-51 is the least pressing concern. What about the alt caps and swapping out the 190A-8?

[Brooke]

What was that Pony doing when you popped on his six? I bet you did not get there 1v1 or his squad only vs your squad only. Also, nice G-14.

Come on -- I had to poke some fun at you, you know? 

It was a scrum over the top of bombers during a Luftwaffe attack on the bomber stream, and you know that a G-14 isn't better than a G-6 at higher alts.

The way I feel about it is this:  I don't fear fighting P-51's in my 109G.  If he is a better pilot than I am, he will probably kill me -- but I don't feel that it is the plane.

Any insight as to the real content of my full post

Yes, it is in other posts above.  See revision 3, info on performance of P-51B's vs. Luftwaffe in BOG, and the main design ratios for comparison of various past strategic-bombing scenarios.

[HB555]

Doubt there will be 14 bomber pilots. so doubt there will be 42 bombers. Seems like each scenario bombers get taken down pretty well, so there are fewer and fewer people wanting to fly them. At some point it will get down to no one wants to fly them, which will then end the whines about bombers.

[Devil 505]

Yes, it is in other posts above.  See revision 3, info on performance of P-51B's vs. Luftwaffe in BOG, and the main design ratios for comparison of various past strategic-bombing scenarios.

None of this pertains to alt caps, 190A-8's, or 110's.

[Brooke]

What about the alt caps and swapping out the 190A-8?

The typical alt in Big Week seemed to be 25k, which is why I increased it a measly 2k.  23k was quite low for Big Week, it seems.

Let's compromise at 24k.

As for 190A-8's, there were two reasons to making them 190A-5's.  First is that 190A-8's weren't around until after Big Week.  Second is that all I hear from axis guys is wanting A-5's instead of A-8's.  I thought they'd be happy to get A-5's instead of A-8's, but I get the lethality aspect.

The A-8 is so slow and climbs so poorly at alt, I worry about them.  The A-5 is nearly 40 mph faster and has about twice the climb rate at 30k.  That is significant.

I understand the firepower issue, but if you really want firepower, the axis could have some 110G's with higher firepower still, way more 30 mm ammo (not just 55 rpg), no convergence issue, the same speed as the A-8 at alt, and climbs better than the A-8 at alt.

I also don't mind fighting P-51's in the 110G: 


I'm going to fly axis in this one.  I will likely be in a 109.  If there are 110G's, I might fly one of those, though.

[bozon]

an 8/8 cloud layer at 34 will look bad I think. Let us see some blue when looking up!

Perhaps a down-wind layer above 34k is a better solution?

[Brooke]

Doubt there will be 14 bomber pilots. so doubt there will be 42 bombers. Seems like each scenario bombers get taken down pretty well, so there are fewer and fewer people wanting to fly them. At some point it will get down to no one wants to fly them, which will then end the whines about bombers.

Chin up, my friend! 

It's only a small number of guys who every time want more advantages over bombers, and they never fly bombers, so you can't expect them to know what it is like.

Getting annihilated (like A-20's in Tunisia, Ju 88's in MM, for example) is certainly no fun.

But the last several years of scenarios have been OK for bombers other than that.  Bombers did fine in Hinterland, Dnieper (at least Tu-2's did), Southern Conquest (my Ju 88 group had a rocking time), BOWL, and BoB 2013 (at least I did in He 111's).

Keep in mind this one is modelled on Battle Over Germany frame 1, where bombers did OK.  It wasn't a cakewalk, and they didn't all die short of target.  Also, we are having 2 missions for bombers, not just one.

This is *the* bomber setup -- 8th AF strategic bombing.

If bomber pilots can't get into this one, they aren't really bomber pilots!