June, 2017 Scenario design discussion

[Devil 505]

According to the sources for the Wiki article on 190 variants, the A-7 didn't have 30 mm cannon in wings.  Devil, where are you finding the data that half of A-7's had 30 mm cannon in the wings (as opposed to rarer 190 underwing gun pods)?

I'm getting The Luftwaffe Data Book -- I'm hoping it will have more data on such things, but I won't know until it arrives.  Also, just ordered The FW 190 in Action book to see if it covers such things.

Anyway, using Fencer's data and assuming that it is representative of all of Big Week 190's and using Devil's assertion that half of A-7's had 30 mm cannon, 16% of 190's have 30 mm cannon, which comes out to 2.6 aircraft for us.

If that is a decent analysis (I'll see if we can get more data on any of this), maybe we could have one group of 4 aircraft that is 190A-8's or Bf 110G's or 190A-5's (at Luftwaffe's choice -- although would prefer it to be made prior to us opening registration if possible), one group that is 4 190A-5's, and another group that is 8 190A-5's.

Swareiam, any thoughts on this?

Jg 26 War Diary: Vol 2, pg. 207 by Donald Caldwell.


Note that Caldwell states the other Geschwader to receive A-7's was Jg 2 when in fact it was Jg 1.

[Zoney]

Devil is my friend

[Devil 505]

Devil is my friend

 

[Guppy35]

Not sure where this is headed.  Does this mean there should be more A-8s or not?  Thought there was concern about performance?  Personally they can all be A-8s if that's what folks prefer or A-5s or a mix!

[Devil 505]

Not sure where this is headed.  Does this mean there should be more A-8s or not?  Thought there was concern about performance?  Personally they can all be A-8s if that's what folks prefer or A-5s or a mix!

To me it ties in to the expected combat conditions given the rule set. The bombers are higher than in BoG, which means it will be even more difficult to engage the bomber stream regardless of aircraft type. That places an emphasis on ensuring kill shots on bombers with a single pass.

What I have been trying to show Brooke, is that his model of using the BoG planes set balance does not work without the A-8. It works even less because of the raised bomber cap. 23K was fine for BoG when every 190 was an A-8. With the A-5, attacks on the bomber stream will need to be protracted to maintain the kill ratio, hence the need to lower the cap even further. But I figure it would be easier to prove Brooke's claims and insistence on no A-8's as incorrect than convincing him to bring the bombers lower than in BoG.

[Guppy35]

To me it ties in to the expected combat conditions given the rule set. The bombers are higher than in BoG, which means it will be even more difficult to engage the bomber stream regardless of aircraft type. That places an emphasis on ensuring kill shots on bombers with a single pass.

What I have been trying to show Brooke, is that his model of using the BoG planes set balance does not work without the A-8. It works even less because of the raised bomber cap. 23K was fine for BoG when every 190 was an A-8. With the A-5, attacks on the bomber stream will need to be protracted to maintain the kill ratio, hence the need to lower the cap even further. But I figure it would be easier to prove Brooke's claims and insistence on no A-8's as incorrect than convincing him to bring the bombers lower than in BoG.

Got ya.

So A-8s in the main, and BoG alt caps is the goal

[Devil 505]

More or less, Dan.

I understand Brooke's reluctance to go full A-8's. With only 14 sets of buffs there could be missions wiped out well before the drop zone. My feeling though is that too many bombers will survive contact with A-5's as the likelihood of a first pass kill is so much less. Given the huge alt and energy advantage the Allied fighters have, I feel that any 190 would be driven off in most cases before making a second pass. That is why I also recommended lowering the overall alt cap as well. If the fighter energy gap is closer, the Luft fighters have a better chance of keeping pressure on the buffs long enough to keep kill rates proportional to what was seen with full A-8's in BoG.

[Guppy35]

More or less, Dan.

I understand Brooke's reluctance to go full A-8's. With only 14 sets of buffs there could be missions wiped out well before the drop zone. My feeling though is that too many bombers will survive contact with A-5's as the likelihood of a first pass kill is so much less. Given the huge alt and energy advantage the Allied fighters have, I feel that any 190 would be driven off in most cases before making a second pass. That is why I also recommended lowering the overall alt cap as well. If the fighter energy gap is closer, the Luft fighters have a better chance of keeping pressure on the buffs long enough to keep kill rates proportional to what was seen with full A-8's in BoG.

Personally it doesn't matter to me other than I want as many folks interested in flying and increasing the crowd instead of the steady drop we've seen for a while now.  I'd rather tangle with 100 A-8s at a lower altitude than 20 A-5s at a higher one

[oboe]

Howdy, Oboe.  I think the setup is pretty decent, and I'd rather skip complications in player-enforced rules of manning planes.

There was no 190A-8 in Big Week.  If Big Week was mostly A-7's (I don't know if that was the case), the 190A-5 is a much better match to it than is a 190A-8 anyway.

For rockets, maybe 1% of attacks in Big Week were rocket attacks.  If so, we're talking about less than one plane with rockets here.

I looked up the Me 410 vs. Bf 110.  The large majority of twin-engine fighters in Big Week (which were still a much smaller proportion than 109's and 190's) were 110's.  So, again, if you have a small proportion of an already small proportion, it's a thing that needs to be skipped when you are talking about 40-ish folks on a side.  The axis can opt for four 110G's in place of four 190's if they want -- but I will leave that to the axis to decide if they want them, but we should do it one way or the other prior to registration opening so that folks know what they are signing up for.

Oboe, what are you going to fly in this one?

Thanks Brooke.  I don't have a strong feeling which side or what in particular I'd like to fly in this one - plus I think I should wait until the final design is done to see what my options are.   Actually I think I should fly wherever and whatever will help everyone else's experience the most - you know, fill in for whatever unit seems to be coming up shorthanded. 
I pitched pretty hard for more variety in the plane set - if one of the planes I suggested should make the final cut I would be happy to drive one of those.

[Brooke]

Not sure where this is headed.  Does this mean there should be more A-8s or not?  Thought there was concern about performance?  Personally they can all be A-8s if that's what folks prefer or A-5s or a mix!

It is true, the A-8 is a dog at alt compared to the A-5.  Folks who want the A-8 want it because of the 30 mm.

Regardless, I'm in favor of representative aircraft of the battle.  If it is true that 16% of the 190's were essentially A-8's, then I'm 100% fine with some A-8's in there if the Luftwaffe wants them.  I'm also OK with none if they don't want them, though, as we are only talking about a few planes.

Basically, what I'm thinking is:
JG X has 4 190A-8's (or Bf 110's, whichever the Luftwaffe prefers)
JG Y has 4 190A-5's
JG Z has 8 190A-5's

The total is still 16 planes, it's just that 4 of them are now A-8's or 110's.

[Devil 505]

It is true, the A-8 is a dog at alt compared to the A-5.  Folks who want the A-8 want it because of the 30 mm.

Regardless, I'm in favor of representative aircraft of the battle.  If it is true that 16% of the 190's were essentially A-8's, then I'm 100% fine with some A-8's in there if the Luftwaffe wants them.  I'm also OK with none if they don't want them, though, as we are only talking about a few planes.

Basically, what I'm thinking is:
JG X has 4 190A-8's (or Bf 110's, whichever the Luftwaffe prefers)
JG Y has 4 190A-5's
JG Z has 8 190A-5's

The total is still 16 planes, it's just that 4 of them are now A-8's or 110's.

This is fine if the alt caps come down.

If you insist on keeping it at 23K or above, we're going to need more than just 4 A-8's.

Something like...

Jg X has 8 190 A-8's
Jg Y has 8 190 A-5's

OR

JG X has 4 190A-8's
JG Y has 4 190A-5's
JG Z has 8 190A-5's
Zg R has 4 110G-2's

and the number of 109's remains unchanged as well.

[Brooke]

The bombers are higher than in BoG,

A whole 1k higher, but that is irrelevant because . . .

which means it will be even more difficult to engage the bomber stream regardless of aircraft type.

What matters is the height of the escort, not the height of the bombers.  You have to climb to the level of the escort before you go in, or you won't make it to the bombers; and once you are at escort height, specific bomber alt doesn't matter as you are way higher than they are regardless.  This is unless the bombers are unescorted, in which case it's moot anyway.

I (in my 109G) could not care less whether the bombers are at 23k or 24k.

I'm not picking 23k or 24k for convenience of the Luftwaffe or 8th AF.  I'm picking what seemed (in references I looked through) to have been typical historical bomber alt.

But I figure it would be easier to prove Brooke's claims and insistence on no A-8's as incorrect than convincing him to bring the bombers lower than in BoG.

Yes, that is absolutely the way to do it.  I am in favor of putting in planes that were there when possible.

So, what alt should we use?  The historical one.

What aircraft should we have?  The historical ones.

You want one plane or the other because you like it better or because you think it's an advantage to your side?  That doesn't influence me as much -- but . . .

If you find that the one you like happens to be the historical one, I'm usually in favor of that. 

[Brooke]

we're going to need

Don't worry so much, Devil -- it isn't our aircraft that will win or lose the battle for us -- it is we pilots who will determine that based on how well we fly and execute.   

It's not like we're flying P-40's here or have bad pilots.  We've got some great German aircraft and some great pilots.   

[Brooke]

Thanks Brooke.  I don't have a strong feeling which side or what in particular I'd like to fly in this one - plus I think I should wait until the final design is done to see what my options are.   Actually I think I should fly wherever and whatever will help everyone else's experience the most - you know, fill in for whatever unit seems to be coming up shorthanded. 
I pitched pretty hard for more variety in the plane set - if one of the planes I suggested should make the final cut I would be happy to drive one of those.

You are a good egg, Oboe.   

That's exactly what I do from time to time, too -- see what will be the least-favored plane of the least-favored side and fly that.

This one, all of the planes are pretty popular.  The P-47's, B-17's, and 109G's will take longest to fill just based on relative abundance, I think.

[Brooke]

190 pilots out there, do you also want some A-8's in place of A-5's?

I want to make sure the Luftwaffe in general (including pilots who will be flying them) want it this way.