Author Topic: Player numbers down?  (Read 22447 times)

Offline nrshida

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Re: Player numbers down?
« Reply #105 on: May 12, 2017, 12:47:33 AM »
The DA Lake side of the map is a total disaster....


In the very brief period I got to fly AHIII (one afternoon) I was unable to take off from any of the furbal bases.

Once there was quite an active and friendly community in what you would call 'off hours' in AHII. We used to call it the 'Breakfast Club'. The point in the day when it would end would be marked by the number of Tempests showing up and those who were there to pick. Before then there was lots of 1 on 1s, 2 on 2s, small furbals, players wanting to improve their ACM. Many Breakfast Club players didn't have the machinery to get to AHIII. Including me. Assuming the numbers came back and the arena settings would change, your suggestion would deny this from returning. Why would this be positive?

I watched the daily decline of the Furbal lake which began in what you would call 'off hours' and grew outwards. My read is that as the numbers reduced, eventually a tipping point was reached. Very few people take the initiative to join an empty arena. In my daytime the numbers in the MA also dropped noticeably to under 12 players for many hours. These hours expanded to fill the bulk of my day in fact. I believe Lusche recorded similar experiences. Numbers similarly reducing and growing outwards - as they did at the furbal lake - would likely mark the begining of the end for AH. Declines like this aren't linear.

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Offline Purzel

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Re: Player numbers down?
« Reply #106 on: May 12, 2017, 08:39:28 AM »
7 pages by my count, I think Purzel the op is getting a lot more than he bargained for, lol,

For sure  :rofl

But thanks for all the insight. As said before and in the thread quite a few times, the numbers are a lot lower than say 7 or so years ago. With varying reasons depending on the viewpoint...

I'll check back eventually to see how things develop.

Thanks again!

Purzel

Offline Hungry

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Re: Player numbers down?
« Reply #107 on: May 12, 2017, 10:21:03 AM »
For sure  :rofl

But thanks for all the insight. As said before and in the thread quite a few times, the numbers are a lot lower than say 7 or so years ago. With varying reasons depending on the viewpoint...

I'll check back eventually to see how things develop.

Thanks again!

Purzel

Great job guys  :bhead
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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Player numbers down?
« Reply #108 on: May 12, 2017, 10:31:25 AM »
Great job guys  :bhead

did you read the part where he said he flys at euro time zones, gave it a try and was wondering if the numbers were this low normally. 

lieing to people isn't going to get them to stay.

Offline Hungry

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Re: Player numbers down?
« Reply #109 on: May 12, 2017, 11:22:45 AM »
did you read the part where he said he flys at euro time zones, gave it a try and was wondering if the numbers were this low normally. 

lieing to people isn't going to get them to stay.

I dont pretend to know whats in the hearts and minds, my point was some of this stuff has been beat to death over and over by players who come across as knowing whats best for everybody

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Offline bustr

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Re: Player numbers down?
« Reply #110 on: May 12, 2017, 11:23:09 AM »
Fugi,

That is the single biggest complaint about that time window for the MA. Single digit numbers on each side.
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Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: Player numbers down?
« Reply #111 on: May 12, 2017, 11:37:30 AM »
You make a lot of assumptions based on what YOU like to do i the game.

Creating "another" Dueling/fast action arena will do nothing but draw a few players away from an already dwindling number of players in the Main arena. Newbies may try a da/fast action arena, but the sharks will quickly chase them away. Will they run to the main arena? I doubt it. 2 weeks of having their butts handed to them over and over will do nothing but see them look for a new game.

I'll jump on the assumption wagon here and go out on a limb. I'd bet that less than 25% of the player base right now likes/wants furballs. I think less than half of the players will actually fight for ANY reason. What ever type of game play they like/want, fighting for it is very low down on the list. Grab bases..... most are horde or NOE, why? Because they dont have to fight. Bombing milk runs..... 30K, why? they dont want to have to fight.... see bomb and bail. GV spawn camps. The only time you see guys NOT spawn camping is when some of the "elite" GVers break a spawn camp..... so they can camp the spawn.


Numbers are down because todays players dont want to leave their comfort zones. They dont want to take the time..... and all those deaths to learn other aspects of the game. So they are stuck doing to the 2 or 3 things they can do with out fighting and soon get bored. There is nothing wrong with the game, the price isn't something that is too much to bare, there are a lot of options available to many types of game play. The only issue is the players them selves. Pushing players to step outside of their box and try and learn.... and taking the lumps is all that is needed.

But how do you show them that there is so much more to the game outside that box?

1. What I like to do in the game is fly around and shoot people.

2. I like to have a lot of red guys in a small vicinity to shoot at. That means there is action and intensity.

3. Define how 2 weeks of flying for 30 minutes only to die quickly when they find a con, is better, than if a player flies for 2-5 minutes and dies quickly, but can respawn into the fight over and over again and have the opportunity to find more people to fight with quickly? While still having an Open MA for all the players who like the MA.

4. Again, I don't think you actually read what I posted, because I made a clear argument against the pathetic "shark" theory you and Bustr have. Noobs already expect they will die over and over again. The point I am making is that, if you are learning the game, would you rather fly for 25 minutes to a base, only to die quickly by a higher 190D? OOORRR would you rather be able to go to another arena where you can respawn over and over again into the action with human players? This way you might actually get to shoot the guns one time. Not waste 20 minutes flying in a huge sector, not even knowing what is going on. I think this theory of "sharks eating the bait" is very wrong and makes little sense.

5. I disagree, I bet over 75% of the players want strong big furball fights. What you don't understand is that fighter players who want action have already left, leaving the people in the game who dont care or need other humans to be playing. Strategy land base players dont need other players. SO designing the gameplay to suit players who don't need players is illogical, and thats why #s are down. No one wants to fly an entire sector and a half to a base with 1 fighter in the sky, newbs wont even know what to do. Smaller maps and more condensed shorter base distances would bring back fights and action. A lot more people would re-subscribe than quit. You are pandering to the players that don't need players, and when that's all that is left after everyone leaves, you are afraid to make the changes back to the map, because you think the Land grab players will leave and then no one will play. I disagree with that assessment. More players will join than quit.  Look at the #s when the Buzzsaw map comes on. That clearly represents that since fighter action is so hard to achieve there (far away bases and weird alt bases), and there is no small fighter bowl map to populate for quick action, people leave the entire game and forget about it. Its just not exciting. Why are you so against making the game more exciting again? Why are you so against making the fights more fun again by making a few simple changes to the map, and making bases closer? Its very illogical.

6. Your last paragraph explains why the MA has turned into what it has. I need you to think psychologically about why players are flying so timidly. TIME. Time is your big answer. IF you are new player, who realizes that it takes 20 minutes to climb up to a suitable alt, so you dont get picked, and you have to fly that long to a base, don't you think you are going fly pretty timidly and not want to die quickly? Think about it. Even if you arent a new player, you have to judge your time so you can make the run a success. New players don't want to take this much time only to die quickly to players in the MA. It is so much more frustrating for new players to get into this game, because they fly all the way to a base and get ganged by a couple of spit16s and LA7s. That is what is truely making players fly so timidly. An easy fix is to make bases closer, and/or add a FFA bowl so that players can actually find people to shoot and mess around with in a shorter period of time. You think pushing players outside of their box is going to change gamplay. The problem is, the only way to do that is to design maps that push people into bigger and shorter fights, that's the only way. If you don't want to create a simple fighter bowl or make changes that condense gameplay action. Players arent psychologically going to change the way they play if there is no reason for them to do so.

« Last Edit: May 12, 2017, 11:42:52 AM by DmonSlyr »
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Offline LocoMoto

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Re: Player numbers down?
« Reply #112 on: May 12, 2017, 03:48:38 PM »
You guys are slowly eating eachother alive hahaha :bolt:

Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Player numbers down?
« Reply #113 on: May 12, 2017, 06:35:06 PM »
1. What I like to do in the game is fly around and shoot people.

It is relatively unimportant what you "like". You are not the majority by any means.

Quote
2. I like to have a lot of red guys in a small vicinity to shoot at. That means there is action and intensity.

See above.

Quote
3. Define how 2 weeks of flying for 30 minutes only to die quickly when they find a con, is better, than if a player flies for 2-5 minutes and dies quickly, but can respawn into the fight over and over again and have the opportunity to find more people to fight with quickly? While still having an Open MA for all the players who like the MA.

Again, fighting in a fighter isn't what EVERYONE wants. A new guy could also try GVin, buffs, supply runs (jeeps are fun), wirbles and other G2A activities, joining a mission or horde. None of which you will find in your "fast action" arena. Tell me, whats fun about flying 2 minutes to get shot down over and over again? Thats not going to draw people in, but have them hit that frustration level and quit sooner.

Quote
4. Again, I don't think you actually read what I posted, because I made a clear argument against the pathetic "shark" theory you and Bustr have. Noobs already expect they will die over and over again. The point I am making is that, if you are learning the game, would you rather fly for 25 minutes to a base, only to die quickly by a higher 190D? OOORRR would you rather be able to go to another arena where you can respawn over and over again into the action with human players? This way you might actually get to shoot the guns one time. Not waste 20 minutes flying in a huge sector, not even knowing what is going on. I think this theory of "sharks eating the bait" is very wrong and makes little sense.

I was very sure I was at least average if not a bit better when I got here from AW. I was very much mistaken. The shark ate me alive over and over again. The only thing that gave me half a chance was if I took 15-20 minutes to climb and use speed to try and pick those sharks while they were feeding. 2-3 minutes to fight, even if you get 20 more fights and hour is still going to teach a new guy how to die in one turn.

You see the "shark" today, they are the guys that do nothing but hover over a fight and pick guys who are in the middle of a fight. When you get them in a position to fight they just run away. 

Quote
5. I disagree, I bet over 75% of the players want strong big furball fights. What you don't understand is that fighter players who want action have already left, leaving the people in the game who dont care or need other humans to be playing. Strategy land base players dont need other players. SO designing the gameplay to suit players who don't need players is illogical, and thats why #s are down. No one wants to fly an entire sector and a half to a base with 1 fighter in the sky, newbs wont even know what to do. Smaller maps and more condensed shorter base distances would bring back fights and action. A lot more people would re-subscribe than quit. You are pandering to the players that don't need players, and when that's all that is left after everyone leaves, you are afraid to make the changes back to the map, because you think the Land grab players will leave and then no one will play. I disagree with that assessment. More players will join than quit.  Look at the #s when the Buzzsaw map comes on. That clearly represents that since fighter action is so hard to achieve there (far away bases and weird alt bases), and there is no small fighter bowl map to populate for quick action, people leave the entire game and forget about it. Its just not exciting. Why are you so against making the game more exciting again? Why are you so against making the fights more fun again by making a few simple changes to the map, and making bases closer? Its very illogical.

If they have already left how can there be 75% of players that still want to fight? Its a moot point as we will never see the numbers even if they did run a poll.

The game and maps are not geared toward any type of play, but allow ALL types of play. I agree some maps seem to have more action, but that is due to the shortness of the fronts. Mindanao, the small island map and uterus, all old maps have very short front lines and so leave very few places to hide. Bowl map does the same due to its islands setup. I have posted many suggestions of what I think could be done with game mechanics to "turn" game play into more interactive game than what the players have morphed this into.   

 

Quote
6. Your last paragraph explains why the MA has turned into what it has. I need you to think psychologically about why players are flying so timidly. TIME. Time is your big answer. IF you are new player, who realizes that it takes 20 minutes to climb up to a suitable alt, so you dont get picked, and you have to fly that long to a base, don't you think you are going fly pretty timidly and not want to die quickly? Think about it. Even if you arent a new player, you have to judge your time so you can make the run a success. New players don't want to take this much time only to die quickly to players in the MA. It is so much more frustrating for new players to get into this game, because they fly all the way to a base and get ganged by a couple of spit16s and LA7s. That is what is truely making players fly so timidly. An easy fix is to make bases closer, and/or add a FFA bowl so that players can actually find people to shoot and mess around with in a shorter period of time. You think pushing players outside of their box is going to change gamplay. The problem is, the only way to do that is to design maps that push people into bigger and shorter fights, that's the only way. If you don't want to create a simple fighter bowl or make changes that condense gameplay action. Players arent psychologically going to change the way they play if there is no reason for them to do so.

I dont think "time" is an issue. It is a WWII game, not modern war. Things take time. Buffs dont fly across the map in 2 minutes it takes hours. Fighters take time to get speed and alt, GVs to find good ambush spots and the patience to wait for their prey to roll into the line of fire.

This game was never setup as "instant action", and personally I hope it never goes that way. That is what makes it such a great game and why it has lasted as long as it has. It isn't geared toward any one type of fight/action. There are many options so that a wide range of game players can find something they like.

I dont thing there is anything wrong with the game, we just need more numbers. With more numbers will bring more fights/action. They need new blood. Those of us who are left here are the core/old school players. We have already badgered everyone we know over the years to try this game. HTC has to get the word out about the game and what is available. We the players have to help these new guys find and learn how to play those aspects of the game that interest THEM, not what interests us.

Offline nrshida

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Re: Player numbers down?
« Reply #114 on: May 13, 2017, 01:22:57 AM »
I dont pretend to know whats in the hearts and minds, my point was some of this stuff has been beat to death over and over by players who come across as knowing whats best for everybody

Course. A lot of people are very passionate about the game and the forum tends to promote ideological duels-to-the-death. One going on here look.

I'd just interject that the game exists within a changing background culture. Western society has and is moving towards a more ego-centric, instant (rather than defered) gratification-based model of behaviour and expectations. This has certainly accelerated over the last twenty years. People become increasingly 'isolated' in real interaction but conversely richer in insulated interaction. People seem to expect to get their $15's-worth of I'm-Tom-Cruise per month.

WWII is still a popuar era of interest culturally in both film and games and there are more potential players available than ever before. I think it is not insignificant that you don't see squeekers anymore. Must consider why they've gone elsewhere.


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Offline Threeup

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Re: Player numbers down?
« Reply #115 on: May 13, 2017, 01:27:14 AM »
Course. A lot of people are very passionate about the game and the forum tends to promote ideological duels-to-the-death. One going on here look.

I'd just interject that the game exists within a changing background culture. Western society has and is moving towards a more ego-centric, instant (rather than defered) gratification-based model of behaviour and expectations. This has certainly accelerated over the last twenty years. People become increasingly 'isolated' in real interaction but conversely richer in insulated interaction. People seem to expect to get their $15's-worth of I'm-Tom-Cruise per month.

WWII is still a popuar era of interest culturally in both film and games and there are more potential players available than ever before. I think it is not insignificant that you don't see squeekers anymore. Must consider why they've gone elsewhere.

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Offline NatCigg

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Re: Player numbers down?
« Reply #116 on: May 13, 2017, 10:23:22 AM »


Again, fighting in a fighter isn't what EVERYONE wants. A new guy could also try GVin, buffs, supply runs (jeeps are fun), wirbles and other G2A activities, joining a mission or horde. None of which you will find in your "fast action" arena. Tell me, whats fun about flying 2 minutes to get shot down over and over again? Thats not going to draw people in, but have them hit that frustration level and quit sooner.


I dont think "time" is an issue. It is a WWII game, not modern war. Things take time. Buffs dont fly across the map in 2 minutes it takes hours. Fighters take time to get speed and alt, GVs to find good ambush spots and the patience to wait for their prey to roll into the line of fire.

This game was never setup as "instant action", and personally I hope it never goes that way. That is what makes it such a great game and why it has lasted as long as it has. It isn't geared toward any one type of fight/action. There are many options so that a wide range of game players can find something they like.

I dont thing there is anything wrong with the game, we just need more numbers. With more numbers will bring more fights/action. They need new blood. Those of us who are left here are the core/old school players. We have already badgered everyone we know over the years to try this game. HTC has to get the word out about the game and what is available. We the players have to help these new guys find and learn how to play those aspects of the game that interest THEM, not what interests us.

in the one on one arena i went spit 9 vs. blade.  oh man, he shot me down every sortie. maybe 15 in a row over a span of 20 minutes or so.  i was exhausted but click ready over and over i wanted to beat him.  the session ended when overriding sense of being worn out and the fight itself wearing out. he was better than me.  there was nothing more to do and we both felt spent on the situation.  he salutes me and we both log off.  in the ma i would still be climbing by bombers planning a route, surveying the war, and watching the dangerous skies.

yes, the simulated war is what drives the game.  always has.  the sooner fighter jocks start posting missions and join the fight, the sooner this game becomes fun again.  :old:

Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Player numbers down?
« Reply #117 on: May 13, 2017, 11:40:06 AM »
in the one on one arena i went spit 9 vs. blade.  oh man, he shot me down every sortie. maybe 15 in a row over a span of 20 minutes or so.  i was exhausted but click ready over and over i wanted to beat him.  the session ended when overriding sense of being worn out and the fight itself wearing out. he was better than me.  there was nothing more to do and we both felt spent on the situation.  he salutes me and we both log off.  in the ma i would still be climbing by bombers planning a route, surveying the war, and watching the dangerous skies.

yes, the simulated war is what drives the game.  always has.  the sooner fighter jocks start posting missions and join the fight, the sooner this game becomes fun again.  :old:

Yes but you have been here a long time. You know what to expect. You know your limitations. Most importantly you know the options available.

A newbie comes in and goes to that arena . Gets his butt handed to him time after time. "IF" he thinks that is all there is to the game, I'd bet he is done and we never see him again. I'd hope that the guys in there kicking butt are giving out advice and trying to help these guys get better, and let them know there are more options.

In the MA, I'll fly anything. I'll haul bombs and help out when there is a battle going on, but that is where we have fallen down in game play. As a Rook we rarely see any missions, but when we do,and for the most part, ALL missions turn into hordes, knits and Bish as well. Mission planners seem to think they need 4 guys on every hanger to make sure it goes down, then 10 guys to take out ack and vulch, and another half dozen buffs to dive bomb the town and vehicles. There is little skill or tactics involved any more. That leads to boredom, doing the same old mission over and over again.

Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: Player numbers down?
« Reply #118 on: May 13, 2017, 12:43:22 PM »
It is relatively unimportant what you "like". You are not the majority by any means.

See above.

Again, fighting in a fighter isn't what EVERYONE wants. A new guy could also try GVin, buffs, supply runs (jeeps are fun), wirbles and other G2A activities, joining a mission or horde. None of which you will find in your "fast action" arena. Tell me, whats fun about flying 2 minutes to get shot down over and over again? Thats not going to draw people in, but have them hit that frustration level and quit sooner.

I was very sure I was at least average if not a bit better when I got here from AW. I was very much mistaken. The shark ate me alive over and over again. The only thing that gave me half a chance was if I took 15-20 minutes to climb and use speed to try and pick those sharks while they were feeding. 2-3 minutes to fight, even if you get 20 more fights and hour is still going to teach a new guy how to die in one turn.

You see the "shark" today, they are the guys that do nothing but hover over a fight and pick guys who are in the middle of a fight. When you get them in a position to fight they just run away. 

If they have already left how can there be 75% of players that still want to fight? Its a moot point as we will never see the numbers even if they did run a poll.

The game and maps are not geared toward any type of play, but allow ALL types of play. I agree some maps seem to have more action, but that is due to the shortness of the fronts. Mindanao, the small island map and uterus, all old maps have very short front lines and so leave very few places to hide. Bowl map does the same due to its islands setup. I have posted many suggestions of what I think could be done with game mechanics to "turn" game play into more interactive game than what the players have morphed this into.   

 

I dont think "time" is an issue. It is a WWII game, not modern war. Things take time. Buffs dont fly across the map in 2 minutes it takes hours. Fighters take time to get speed and alt, GVs to find good ambush spots and the patience to wait for their prey to roll into the line of fire.

This game was never setup as "instant action", and personally I hope it never goes that way. That is what makes it such a great game and why it has lasted as long as it has. It isn't geared toward any one type of fight/action. There are many options so that a wide range of game players can find something they like.

I dont thing there is anything wrong with the game, we just need more numbers. With more numbers will bring more fights/action. They need new blood. Those of us who are left here are the core/old school players. We have already badgered everyone we know over the years to try this game. HTC has to get the word out about the game and what is available. We the players have to help these new guys find and learn how to play those aspects of the game that interest THEM, not what interests us.

Players like me are the majority fugitive. For some reason you simply just cannot connect the dots on why all the fighter squads left, or only play in the FSO. Why would fighter squads only play in FSO if that's nothing but fighter planes and bombers? Why have #s dropped when fighter action around the map is hard to find?

If people don't care about quick intensity fight, why have the #s dropped? Why have quick action games become so much more popular. There are sharks in WT and Il-2, didn't see those #s teetering. I want to keep the MA, the MA is a great concept. But AH is missing an arena for people who just want to tango in a short period of time, with no score.

I hate to say it but Nrshida's perception is correct, but my ideas don't even change the game one bit. An arena FFA bowl would only add extra fun for these types of players. It could possibly being in so many more players who enjoy combat and AH flight model. 

You are really missing so much of what I say Fugitive. You want to pander to the weak minority and that's why the #s have dropped. How can you expect to expect the #s to increase when you want strategy, hide in threes, type of players who don't want other players around.  You are pandering to people who don't want combat action, or anyone to see them, how are those playing styles going to increase the #s overall? They aren't, because only a few people have the patients for that. No fights and action around the maps leads to decreasing #s. It's that simple. That's why I suggest shorter base distances on smaller maps. It would fix game play without even changing any thing to the game.

You don't think there is anything wrong with the MA but that we just need more #s. How is that possible when the #s have been dropping do to lack of combat action? How do you get more #s back by pandering to the strategy "hide in the trees" players?  Then you say the MA has been dying do to timid players ganging and picking, but don't understand why those situations become possible.  Plus it's much more frustrating for a new player to spend 20 minutes climbing to a fight only to die quickly. You are very wrong on your assessment about an FFA bowl. The MA encourages timidness while there is no other map that encourages fighter ACM and fighter combat quickly. These players don't have anywhere to learn how to fight with other players, besides the Training arena, but that's more 1 on 1, and many new players don't have time for setting all of that up or knowing what to do, and asking players in the MA is a feat. They want to jump into the action and go all out.  If you create a faster bowl FFA arena. These players would learn and understand combat a little better, and youd see more people fighting in the MA again, rather than running and extending at 20K because they don't know what to do.

Time is an issue Fugitive, especially when you spend 30 minutes and can't find a single red guy to shoot at. You spend 30 minutes to climb and then get ganged. You need to realise how this effects players so many people just don't have the time anymore to chase small dars In a big MA. I truely think you need to change your perspective because I simply don't think you truely undertsand what is bringing the #s to a stand.
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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Player numbers down?
« Reply #119 on: May 13, 2017, 01:39:46 PM »
Players like you MAY have been the majority, but that was years ago.

FSO numbers are good because they use tactics and strategies instead of running horde missions.

We had an FFA arena in the old days, it was called the dueling arena with a nice big lake in the center of three bases. No it didnt air spawn you but all bases were at 5k and in minutes you were at speed and closing in on the "fight" at the center of the lake. But we all know what happened to that. Too many griefers turned it into a waste land and now its gone. I guess the theory of a quick action arena failed that time, why would it work now?

Im not pandering to any type of player. Im just saying that HTC MUST have all the option of different styles of game play available, other wise they are just cutting their throats. An all "fighter" game would never survive. A game with fighters, buffs, ships, vehicles, strat, base capture, ground 2 air has been rolling along over a dozen years.

Moving bases, do you know what is involved in that? Have you been following Bustr's journey? To move bases of the maps we have would mean rebuilding them from scratch. If you have been following Bustr map building you'd know that it takes months to do one map.

I think the numbers have been dropping due to boredom. The lack of fights is a by-product of the low numbers. Double the numbers and we would have twice the fights we have now. More people, more action. Pretty simple.