Author Topic: C919 Passenger plane maiden voyage  (Read 2637 times)

Offline Vraciu

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Re: C919 Passenger plane maiden voyage
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2017, 06:39:53 PM »
I see no real problem with it. Aeronautical design is a very well researched area, especially in the transport area. There are very few new ideas, mostly just incorporation of old technology into a new design, or vice versa.

Saying they "stole" anything would be like saying any aircraft with an elliptical wing stole from Supermarine. Or that P&W stole from Heinkel with their axial compressor turbojets.

And those bastards at SAAB stole from the Wright Brothers by using a canard wing.


Nobody owns physics.

We're not talking about physics. 
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Offline FBKampfer

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Re: C919 Passenger plane maiden voyage
« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2017, 09:53:04 PM »
We're not talking about physics.

No, we're talking about "intelectual property" as far as component design, and perhaps material or electrical engineering.

My point being that ownership of an idea, concept, or design is a rather tenuous at best, at least as far as non-person entities are concerned. You can't own the angle of the turbine blades, or the layout of the hydrolic lines, or whatever the hell the specific issue is much more than you can own the canard wing.


But beyond that, I'm completely happy to see one multimillion dollar company stealing from another. Past the companies competing and stealing from each other, and doing anything they can to get the drop on each other, I don't benefit in the slightest one way or the other. Hell I'm a chef. If we get more Asian tourists on the west coast flying in on Chinese jets using "stolen property", more power to them. I might get another raise if business picks up.


Past that, it's interesting to read about.
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Offline Brooke

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Re: C919 Passenger plane maiden voyage
« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2017, 11:38:34 PM »
You can't own the angle of the turbine blades, or the layout of the hydrolic lines, or whatever the hell the specific issue is much more than you can own the canard wing.

Those are trade secrets or designs.  It doesn't preclude someone from developing the same thing on his own, but if he breaks into your company and steals your designs, that is theft.  The penalty for doing that is the same as if he broke into your company and stole computers or tools.

Let's say you, as a chef, spent one year writing a book of your recipes (and it was a lot of work to get the right prose, anecdotes, stories about the recipe and how you developed it, what other foods each recipe is good with, etc.), and your wife worked over that time taking artistic pictures of your prepared dishes for illustrations in the book.  She experimented with different shots, lighting, colors, etc.  Then, 2 weeks before you send the book to your publisher, you see a book on the market that is an exact copy of yours -- your recipes, your writing, your wife's photographs.  Your publisher isn't interested in buying your book from you anymore.  You find out that some guy broke into your study, stole an electronic copy of all your writing and wife's pictures, and published it as his own.  He made $1 million, and is famous as a great chef who came up with amazing award-winning recipes.  He gets his own fancy restaurant.  His restaurant, that serves all these dishes and is promoted based on the popularity of the book, is the talk of the town and hugely popular.

You complain, but he says, "Well, you can't own writing or ingredients or the graphical appearance of food.  I'm happy to see chefs steal from each other and compete -- it helps the consumer."

(His reasoning would in reality not help him in court, by the way.  If you could prove he did steal it from you, you would likely win monetary damages, and the guy might do prison time for theft.)

Offline nrshida

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Re: C919 Passenger plane maiden voyage
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2017, 01:29:18 AM »
Those are trade secrets or designs.  It doesn't preclude someone from developing the same thing on his own, but if he breaks into your company and steals your designs, that is theft.

Unfortunately ideas and design solutions seem to have a special place in the human psychie which differs from the material. The number of inventors who have lived out their last days pennyless and alone, while the second (usually more business-inclinated) person has 'stolen' it are ridiculoursly numerous. History is replete with examples of this. Can readily replace individuals with companies.

This does / has extended to every nation and culture. There's a need but no solution. Some dude devises and presents a solution and bang - 'YES! We have the solution! And who's this annoying, unuseful, irrelevant person asking for money?'.


Regarding aviation. There's a hanger in the RAF Hendon museum. In there you'll find the design inspiration / template for the French Mirage, The SR-71 Blackbird and all the essential design elements you can see in every MiG from the 50s right up to the MiG-29. And plenty of others. I'm talking about real planes, devised, built, paid for and flight tested.



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Offline Bruv119

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Re: C919 Passenger plane maiden voyage
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2017, 02:20:25 AM »
German industry did basically start the same way, just 100 years earlier. They bough the machines, they hired the foreign (=British) personnel, they commited industry spionage abroad. They copied (badly, at first), they learned & improved. And started to export cheap stuff....
It's always the same cycle.  :)

and to think that we have a me-262 in game and no meteor!!!     

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Offline Busher

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Re: C919 Passenger plane maiden voyage
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2017, 09:21:49 AM »
See Rule #14
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 10:35:41 AM by Skuzzy »
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Offline hotcoffe

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Re: C919 Passenger plane maiden voyage
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2017, 10:13:04 AM »
this reminded me how the Russians bought the mig 15s engine from brits !which gave them a solid starting point afterwards they just keep building on it basically most of their engine technology lol
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: C919 Passenger plane maiden voyage
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2017, 10:16:20 AM »
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 10:36:26 AM by Skuzzy »
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: C919 Passenger plane maiden voyage
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2017, 11:33:55 AM »
Tried to PM you, Busher.    No hard feelings on my end.  Since my reply got taken out it could appear otherwise.   :salute
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Offline zack1234

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Re: C919 Passenger plane maiden voyage
« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2017, 01:13:22 PM »
and to think that we have a me-262 in game and no meteor!!!     

as zack would say "it is an outrage!!"£

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Offline FBKampfer

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Re: C919 Passenger plane maiden voyage
« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2017, 02:47:07 PM »
Those are trade secrets or designs.  It doesn't preclude someone from developing the same thing on his own, but if he breaks into your company and steals your designs, that is theft.  The penalty for doing that is the same as if he broke into your company and stole computers or tools.

Let's say you, as a chef, spent one year writing a book of your recipes (and it was a lot of work to get the right prose, anecdotes, stories about the recipe and how you developed it, what other foods each recipe is good with, etc.), and your wife worked over that time taking artistic pictures of your prepared dishes for illustrations in the book.  She experimented with different shots, lighting, colors, etc.  Then, 2 weeks before you send the book to your publisher, you see a book on the market that is an exact copy of yours -- your recipes, your writing, your wife's photographs.  Your publisher isn't interested in buying your book from you anymore.  You find out that some guy broke into your study, stole an electronic copy of all your writing and wife's pictures, and published it as his own.  He made $1 million, and is famous as a great chef who came up with amazing award-winning recipes.  He gets his own fancy restaurant.  His restaurant, that serves all these dishes and is promoted based on the popularity of the book, is the talk of the town and hugely popular.

You complain, but he says, "Well, you can't own writing or ingredients or the graphical appearance of food.  I'm happy to see chefs steal from each other and compete -- it helps the consumer."

(His reasoning would in reality not help him in court, by the way.  If you could prove he did steal it from you, you would likely win monetary damages, and the guy might do prison time for theft.)

I see personal creation and ownership as being different than corporate ownership.

I'd much rather see the individual engineers and designers own their inventions and innovations. Corporate ownership has some very negative aspects to it.
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Offline nrshida

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Re: C919 Passenger plane maiden voyage
« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2017, 03:15:43 PM »
this reminded me how the Russians bought the mig 15s engine from brits !which gave them a solid starting point afterwards they just keep building on it basically most of their engine technology lol

I think after they'd bought the samples they didn't even pay the licensing fees.

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Offline Brooke

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Re: C919 Passenger plane maiden voyage
« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2017, 04:14:54 PM »
I see personal creation and ownership as being different than corporate ownership.

I'd much rather see the individual engineers and designers own their inventions and innovations. Corporate ownership has some very negative aspects to it.

Those things aren't different.  Corporations are just a bunch of people organized in a way to do and to own things together.

Let's say you want to start a restaurant.  You don't have all the money yourself.  One way to proceed is to borrow the money and use it to start your restaurant, which is then owned entirely by you (and probably not owned in part by your waiters, I'm guessing) -- unless you can't make a payment on your loan, in which case the bank then owns the whole thing.

However, some people can't borrow the money, or can't predict revenue well enough for a loan to be a safe way to go, or . . . they want people who contribute to starting the operation to take a share in it.  So, they all pitch in some money, and they all get a share of it.  Together, they benefit if it does well or lose their money if it fails.  That's what a corporation is.

When a company owns something, it is all the people who have a piece of the company who own that thing.

In companies I'm involved in, all the employees have a share in the company.  They -- individually -- benefit from the company doing well, building inventions, etc.  And if there weren't any corporations, they would be completely out of luck gaining anything from that invention/innovation process.

Also, not all corporations are GE and Apple.  Most corporations in the US are small, entrepreneurial enterprises.  There were (as of 2015) 5.7 million companies in the US -- 98% of them having less than 100 employees, 90% of them less than 20 employees.

Offline Busher

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Re: C919 Passenger plane maiden voyage
« Reply #43 on: May 09, 2017, 06:32:06 PM »
Tried to PM you, Busher.    No hard feelings on my end.  Since my reply got taken out it could appear otherwise.   :salute

My apologies Sir. My poor attempt at a joke at your expense was totally out of line. I am also well aware that Embraer makes fine airplanes.

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Offline Vraciu

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Re: C919 Passenger plane maiden voyage
« Reply #44 on: May 09, 2017, 06:56:23 PM »
My apologies Sir. My poor attempt at a joke at your expense was totally out of line. I am also well aware that Embraer makes fine airplanes.

<S>

No worries, man.   I know there was no malice intended.   :salute

Sorry I was too dense to get the joke.  :lol
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 07:07:34 PM by Vraciu »
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