Author Topic: C919 Passenger plane maiden voyage  (Read 2638 times)

Offline FBKampfer

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Re: C919 Passenger plane maiden voyage
« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2017, 07:49:02 PM »
Those things aren't different.  Corporations are just a bunch of people organized in a way to do and to own things together.

Let's say you want to start a restaurant.  You don't have all the money yourself.  One way to proceed is to borrow the money and use it to start your restaurant, which is then owned entirely by you (and probably not owned in part by your waiters, I'm guessing) -- unless you can't make a payment on your loan, in which case the bank then owns the whole thing.

However, some people can't borrow the money, or can't predict revenue well enough for a loan to be a safe way to go, or . . . they want people who contribute to starting the operation to take a share in it.  So, they all pitch in some money, and they all get a share of it.  Together, they benefit if it does well or lose their money if it fails.  That's what a corporation is.

When a company owns something, it is all the people who have a piece of the company who own that thing.

In companies I'm involved in, all the employees have a share in the company.  They -- individually -- benefit from the company doing well, building inventions, etc.  And if there weren't any corporations, they would be completely out of luck gaining anything from that invention/innovation process.

Also, not all corporations are GE and Apple.  Most corporations in the US are small, entrepreneurial enterprises.  There were (as of 2015) 5.7 million companies in the US -- 98% of them having less than 100 employees, 90% of them less than 20 employees.

Yes and the individuals comprising the company have no individual legal claim to anything the company creates save for any shares they hold. Big difference between an engineer at Boeing holding patent over a subsystem or component and Boeing holding patent, no matter how you try to spin it. The engineer or engineers involved certainly aren't making as much as they could be, and many that have no hand in the invention benefit far in excess of them.


And true, the problems tend to be muddied the closer you get to two lone individuals forming a company. But the reality is that nobody is arguing that mom and pop shops are part of the problem. And mom and pop shops are at best only tangentially related to the issue at hand, mostly in capacity of a human shield for large corporate when it comes to legislation.
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Offline NatCigg

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Re: C919 Passenger plane maiden voyage
« Reply #46 on: May 09, 2017, 08:33:31 PM »
a bit silly to to take this stance.  reminds me of commie propaganda.  first off, a Boeing employee holding a patent to a Boeing used product would be a made man.  and if he was a share holder too, wowzers hed be in good.  royalties from his patent, income for his labor, and profit share from the company.  baller.  bet he wears a boeing hat.  :old:

point being said earlier, a corporation is a group of people kôrpəˈrāSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: corporation; plural noun: corporations

    a company or group of people authorized to act as a single entity (legally a person) and recognized as such in law.

it is not a evil empire.  economically they are threatening due to the large pool of resources and economies of scale, that lower the cost of production, lowering the profitable sale price, increasing sales quantity, and pressuring competition to lower prices that they may not be able to do, giving the corporation more control of the market.  hence government control of markets to keep them fair.  :bolt:

Offline Brooke

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Re: C919 Passenger plane maiden voyage
« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2017, 11:39:12 PM »
Yes and the individuals comprising the company have no individual legal claim to anything the company creates save for any shares they hold.

The shareholders are the owners of the company.  They have plenty of legal claims for all sorts of things (there is an enormous branch of law dealing with these things), and shareholders are the ultimate authority for a corporation.

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Big difference between an engineer at Boeing holding patent over a subsystem or component and Boeing holding patent, no matter how you try to spin it. The engineer or engineers involved certainly aren't making as much as they could be, and many that have no hand in the invention benefit far in excess of them.

This is incorrect and/or misstating things on numerous levels.

First, when you are thinking of corporations, you keep thinking of Boeing, when in fact companies the size of Boeing are less than 1% of all companies.  It's like drawing conclusions about how easy or hard it is to dunk a basketball for men overall using as your example Yao Ming, who is 7 ft, 6 in tall.  So, first thing is that you've got ideas about corporations that don't fit 99% of corporations.

Second, I don't think you have an accurate idea of even that 1% like Boeing.  An engineer at Boeing is making as much as he could -- otherwise, he can go elsewhere to make more.  He is totally free to do that.  That's because we have a free market and not indentured servitude.  He can work somewhere else that pays him more, he can have his own company as a consultant (if he is good enough), he can invent something and (again, if it is valuable enough) go raise money and form his own company to capitalize on it.

Third, I don't think you have an accurate idea of how innovation works in various company settings or why.  I've invented things and innovated at large companies (GM), 200-ish-person companies, and tiny 3-person companies (as a co-founder).  As a co-founder, you get a much bigger piece of the pie, but you are also the one who has to get things funded, built, working in all respects, marketed, selling.  You take lots of risk and might not have a steady salary and benefits (or any salary or benefits) as you are getting things started.  When you work at an established place, they start paying you salary and benefits in the hope that you will do good things.  But they don't pay you only after a year or so when they see how it's all working out.  Also, for an established company, lots and lots of folks (before you) already invented things, built products, developed markets, got things selling, etc., and built a larger organization that you are plugging into.  Regardless, if your job is to innovate, they are paying you to do that, and you are working there to do it as your choice for what works best for you -- otherwise, again, you are free to go out and do it yourself.

Nothing is muddied when you go from a company of 3 people to a company of 30,000 people.  They are both collections of people working collectively.  One just has 3 people in it and one 30,000 people in it.  One might have a new thing that comprises 100% of the value of the company, and the other might have 3 million things that were developed over 100 years, and one person's innovation adds a miniscule percentage of total value.  It all depends.

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mostly in capacity of a human shield for large corporate when it comes to legislation.

If you do something illegal in a corporation, there is no shield for you.

The shield you talk about involves only the credits and liabilities of a corporation as a result of corporate actions.

For example:  If you are the president of Kampherco and you ordered people in your company to murder someone or steal from someone, you and they and the company would suffer liability for it.  If the company took out a loan and defaulted on it or sold a product and got sued because of that product (but you didn't do anything illegal), this is where you would suffer only through what you own of the company, and creditors of the company would not be able to come after your and your family's personal assets.  This is just practical stuff.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 11:54:43 PM by Brooke »

Offline Shuffler

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Re: C919 Passenger plane maiden voyage
« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2017, 02:59:39 PM »
I see personal creation and ownership as being different than corporate ownership.

I'd much rather see the individual engineers and designers own their inventions and innovations. Corporate ownership has some very negative aspects to it.

Someone has to foot the bill. That someone reaps the reward. The person working on it keeps their job and possibly moves up in the corporation.

They are one and the same. Personal creation and ownership and corporate.

The individual with a successful invention will soon be incorporated. At that time or before he/she may start work on another project and bring help aboard. You think he should lose his ownership?
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Offline Mano

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Re: C919 Passenger plane maiden voyage
« Reply #49 on: May 11, 2017, 03:58:21 PM »
Did they make a knockoff or did they do the actual Research, Development and Engineering to develop their own plane?
If you climb to 40,000 feet and a fracture develops in the fuselage there are going to be some very unhappy
passengers.

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Offline Zimme83

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Re: C919 Passenger plane maiden voyage
« Reply #50 on: May 11, 2017, 04:10:34 PM »
Yes, there are a lot of bad things that can happen. You really dont want a new airliner to like randomly catch fire and get grounded for weeks. That would be bad.
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