Author Topic: Why can't you make pretty mountains everywhere?  (Read 3172 times)

Offline bustr

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12436
Why can't you make pretty mountains everywhere?
« on: May 11, 2017, 02:53:42 PM »
One of the things that frustrates mountain creation and even small topographical features is the polygon mesh underlying the work space. If you are not prepared for that, you can quickly get frustrated with how bad things can look in micro scale. And as a result make things super sized in macro scale to get around the polygon limitations. If you import a topographical terrain map, the mesh will dictate the outcomes in ways you don't expect.

On a 5000ft plateau in my current terrain I've pulled up a 10,000ft 1mile diameter cylinder. Then to all 8 primary directions I used the bulldozer tool and a 1\2 mile brush to pull ramps out 3 miles. Then on the lower arm of each ramp once again I pulled tiny ramps at about 45 degrees to the arm. You can see from the screen captures how the polygon mesh dictates the outcome. Which dictates how you address laying down mountains with canyon features. Otherwise, you will pull up big blobs and massage them to look like 10,000ft hills to get around working with, not fighting the mesh.

Because I'm building mountain ranges on my current terrain that have canyons, my strategies in how I create each range is dictated by the polygon mesh. Still, no two places on earth where mountains are concerned, are clones of each other.


The snowflake from above then screen captures from different angles. From above, the top of the screen in the first screen capture is North. You can see how the polygon mesh effects things at different compass headings.














In the end some compass headings are great and others you have to get creative.


bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline NatCigg

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3336
Re: Why can't you make pretty mountains everywhere?
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2017, 11:29:50 AM »
here is the result from Artecs program. the position is looking south southwest just west of Frisco Colorado. this is Summit County and Breckenridge and Copper Mountain ski areas are in view.  :rock
ahtercofrisco2 by Burt Bundy,
ahtercofrisco1 by Burt Bundy,

Offline Kanth

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2462
Re: Why can't you make pretty mountains everywhere?
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2017, 02:12:45 PM »
some pretty montains in Nepal






Gone from the game. Please see Spikes or Nefarious for any Ahevents.net admin needs.

Offline bustr

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12436
Re: Why can't you make pretty mountains everywhere?
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2017, 04:25:27 PM »
Now create something like those on the fly without that program........
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline bustr

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12436
Re: Why can't you make pretty mountains everywhere?
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2017, 06:56:15 PM »
FSO last night I had to fly NOE through the mountains of New Guinea which had been created with Artik's program. So I got to inspect "scale" and how that program resolved it for the terrain editor import and the polygon mesh limits. It's easy to observe that flying by 25 ft off a mountain face in a deep canyon. I was being timid and very conservative in my assessment of scale, New Guinea's highest part of it's volcanism created range is 12,000ft. There are some very interesting hanging valley's in there a whole squadron of B25's could be lost in. Anyway, I adjusted my scale perception to day and, can you guys create your mountain range freehand? That has been the point of my documentation of my Oceania project. Anyone can run Artik's program, then slap paint on it. But, you cannot easily create a custom terrain with it like bowlma. A How to documentation of Artik's program should be undertaken, just, someone tell the guy who did New Guinea that it's in the Pacific and not Western Europe. He used the Eurp-terrset on it.


Ok here after adjusting my scale perception, it helped a lot with the raise hill tool process. The single biggest skill to hone using the terrain editor is your perception of scale.








bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline 715

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1835
Re: Why can't you make pretty mountains everywhere?
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2017, 07:16:27 PM »
Anyone can run Artik's program, then slap paint on it. But, you cannot easily create a custom terrain with it like bowlma.

I'm curious; can you explain why not?  Couldn't you just pick a spot on the Earth that looks like it will do what you want and then place fields in the required 3 fold symmetry structure?  You would get the geology for free (and the biology from the GlobeCover data Artik uses).  Or couldn't you start with that then edit manually to create something more to what you want, like using the push terrain down brush to add or expand oceans or add rivers etc.?   What problems would this approach present?

Offline NatCigg

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3336
Re: Why can't you make pretty mountains everywhere?
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2017, 09:01:29 PM »
This is precisely what i am doing.  problems are as i see..

symmetry-perfect pie maps are not only ugly to look at they are deeply ingrained in map creator goals.
Water level must be zero alt- this makes adding rivers and lakes hard.  i believe hitech has it on his to do list.
the program does not add  all rivers and lakes well-yes, more water issues.

Still, the natural beauty of nature naturally nurtures the eye.  :aok

Offline ghostdancer

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7562
Re: Why can't you make pretty mountains everywhere?
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2017, 09:06:42 AM »
The terrain for newbrit was done with the pacific terrain set. So I am rather surprised that you are saying it is using the euro set. Then again it was one of the older terrains that was redone in Mid 2016 and strange things have happened to the other older terrains since AH3 has been updated with patches (haven't flown on it for a bit so not sure when that happened). I will have to go to take a look at it since it is on my backlog of terrains to go back and take a look at and tweak / use artik's program for terrain elevations. Not to mention now I am paranoid and think I might have to take a look at other terrains to make sure their settings are still correct since this is not the first time things have sort of shifted.

Also it was done before Artik's program for AH3 came out. Blksea and Blkseaw are also other terrains that were done before Artik created an AH3 version of his program.

The following terrains were re-created with Artik's programs:

bob40
bof44
egypt
java42
luzon
malta
marianas
malaysia
pearl
solomons
wake41

There terrains were created updated or used elevation files created by microdem.

aleutians
blksea
blkseaw
germany
germanyw
italy
newbrit
tunisia
« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 09:19:21 AM by ghostdancer »
X.O. 29th TFT, "We Move Mountains"
CM Terrain Team

Offline NatCigg

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3336
Re: Why can't you make pretty mountains everywhere?
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2017, 09:17:06 AM »
some pretty montains in Nepal


(Image removed from quote.)


(Image removed from quote.)

really cool to see this.  i like how the splat map picked up the ice caps.  really helps the realism.  the limits of the terrain mesh show through in this extreme environment.  Still its flight sim 2004 worthy and that cool my me.

Offline NatCigg

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3336
Re: Why can't you make pretty mountains everywhere?
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2017, 09:21:37 AM »
FSO last night I had to fly NOE through the mountains of New Guinea which had been created with Artik's program. So I got to inspect "scale" and how that program resolved it for the terrain editor import and the polygon mesh limits. It's easy to observe that flying by 25 ft off a mountain face in a deep canyon. I was being timid and very conservative in my assessment of scale, New Guinea's highest part of it's volcanism created range is 12,000ft. There are some very interesting hanging valley's in there a whole squadron of B25's could be lost in. Anyway, I adjusted my scale perception to day and, can you guys create your mountain range freehand? That has been the point of my documentation of my Oceania project. Anyone can run Artik's program, then slap paint on it. But, you cannot easily create a custom terrain with it like bowlma. A How to documentation of Artik's program should be undertaken, just, someone tell the guy who did New Guinea that it's in the Pacific and not Western Europe. He used the Eurp-terrset on it.


Ok here after adjusting my scale perception, it helped a lot with the raise hill tool process. The single biggest skill to hone using the terrain editor is your perception of scale.


(Image removed from quote.)


(Image removed from quote.)

reminds me of the wasatch or front range, though the gullies are drawn out like extreme erosion has occurred in a short time, reminiscent of Kauai, Hawaii. 

looks good for free hand.  :aok

Offline Devil 505

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8854
Re: Why can't you make pretty mountains everywhere?
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2017, 01:30:12 PM »
The terrain for newbrit was done with the pacific terrain set. So I am rather surprised that you are saying it is using the euro set. Then again it was one of the older terrains that was redone in Mid 2016 and strange things have happened to the other older terrains since AH3 has been updated with patches (haven't flown on it for a bit so not sure when that happened). I will have to go to take a look at it since it is on my backlog of terrains to go back and take a look at and tweak / use artik's program for terrain elevations. Not to mention now I am paranoid and think I might have to take a look at other terrains to make sure their settings are still correct since this is not the first time things have sort of shifted.

Also it was done before Artik's program for AH3 came out. Blksea and Blkseaw are also other terrains that were done before Artik created an AH3 version of his program.

The following terrains were re-created with Artik's programs:

bob40
bof44
egypt
java42
luzon
malta
marianas
malaysia
pearl
solomons
wake41

There terrains were created updated or used elevation files created by microdem.

aleutians
blksea
blkseaw
germany
germanyw
italy
newbrit
tunisia

I too saw the Euro tileset on the New Britain map.

Also, if BoB40 was done using Artik's program, why are the Cliffs of Dover not there?
Kommando Nowotny

FlyKommando.com

Offline ghostdancer

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7562
Re: Why can't you make pretty mountains everywhere?
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2017, 03:13:44 PM »
Cliffs of Dover are most likely not there because of the way HiTech's Terrain Editor works. Artik's program basically gives us the raw height elevation and information to tween the coastline to make much more accurately reflect the true contours (much better than I have been able to do by hand). The tween affect causing a smoothing of terrain alt down to the water. So it is very, very hard to do Cliffs that are right on the water's edge and then very thin strip of beach. If you try you end up with a pixelated shoreline. Meaning you end up having to move the cliffs farther inland to not screw up the shoreline.

In AH2 we actually had to make a custom object to accurately do the Cliffs of Dover. Also at the time when I created this I used strm30 for the elevation files instead of srtm3 which has much more refined information (I was having issues with the srtm3 at the time that now have been ironed out). Even with srtm3 I end up getting good chunk of beach and then elevation starts to go up more gradually making it look more hillish that cliff like.

It is on my list to experiment with but I had / still have other fish to fry at the moment.
X.O. 29th TFT, "We Move Mountains"
CM Terrain Team

Offline Devil 505

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8854
Re: Why can't you make pretty mountains everywhere?
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2017, 03:17:48 PM »
Bustr's MA terrain has some cliffs that look the part well enough. So it's doable. I hope you can try to get the effect yourself before the BoB scenario in August.
Kommando Nowotny

FlyKommando.com

Offline ghostdancer

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7562
Re: Why can't you make pretty mountains everywhere?
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2017, 03:52:13 PM »
We will see but you also have to remember that the cliffs of Dover are actually pretty small in elevation height. You go from 0ft to 350ft max in a very short distance also the paint brush can only get down to a certain size. So I will be able to simulate them roughly but not as well as if they were a custom built 3D object.
X.O. 29th TFT, "We Move Mountains"
CM Terrain Team

Offline NatCigg

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3336
Re: Why can't you make pretty mountains everywhere?
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2017, 04:22:45 PM »
i know your pain.  ive been trying to create 200 foot cliffs as pictured rocks in the up.  nothing looks quite rite. there is not a cliff generator,  a guy must use a brush tool that wants to create a hill as if stretching a membrane with a cylinder.