Disillusioned with Japanese tools

[Bizman]

Folded steel can be sharpened to extraordinary levels because of the hard and soft layers. Just make sure that the middle layer is of the hard type. The more layers, the thinner the middle layer can be and the sharper the blade can get.

As for a definition, sharp means two mirror sides meeting at an angle. In an ultimately thin layer of hard steel even the smallest angle will be scary sharp and beyond.

[nrshida]

Might want to read about the making of the katana.

   Sorry Skuzzy. You'll perhaps never appreciate just how funny your suggestion is to me. I know you mean well, let's just leave it at that 

[Vulcan]

I thought this thread would be about nrshida doing a Mr Sulu.

[WEZEL]

if you have an hour to kill

[Skuzzy]

  Sorry Skuzzy. You'll perhaps never appreciate just how funny your suggestion is to me. I know you mean well, let's just leave it at that 

Actually, I thought it odd you would be the one to make light of the katana.  You have to admit, it is unique in the world of swords.

[bustr]

For about 10 years I made a living as a saya-shi making and restoring the koshirae of antique japanese swords, re-wraping handles and other new work or restoration. I also made shirasaya for a sword polisher in San Francisco all while a student of Tenshin ryu kenjutsu. I learned to use and maintain all the traditional tools for saya work. A dozen or so specific duty planes, 5 saws for different duties, and ten or so specific duty chisels with numerous single sided knives for various things on the saya and tsuka. Along with odds and ends tools you have to make for yourself along the way. You end up making a tapered auger of a shallow degree to create the hole the mekugi(bamboo peg) goes through to hold the tsuka(sword handle) on. If you are creating handles for sword students, you quickly discover the correct taper to not get students killed.

Even in japan today most people do not use single sided blades for cooking. Many are frightened by how sharp they are and you have to be taught how to use a single sided blade versus cutting away with a double sided like we are used to in the west. Many people on their first attempts to use a single sided blade find it problematic and run into the same issues that nrshida did. Unless you ask for a left handed knife, japanese single sided knives are right handed especially exports. Think of cutting more as a straight draw through the food pulling.  There are a few designs for pushing. And yes there will be a tendency of blade steering while cutting due to the single bevel, and why you have to learn how to use the knife.

There have been a few tests on fish where the flesh is cut with a single sided and then a double sided blade. Then under high magnification the cell structure for the single sided is cleanly sheared while the double sided shows micro crushing in spots. Japanese chefs and culinary experts say because of this clean cut the food has a superior flavor. Running the cut food through a flavor analysis machine has shown this to be correct. Yes in Japan they have analysis equipment for the strength of flavor(umami) which is very important to consumers.   

As for katana, I still have a few, I practiced tameshigiri as part of kenjutsu training. I'm not sure how much people here in the west are interested in japanese swords anymore. That is why I spent 20 years babysitting servers.   

[nrshida]

For about 10 years I made a living as a saya-shi making and restoring the koshirae of antique japanese swords,

That's interesting Bustr - a fellow craftsman then 

And yes there will be a tendency of blade steering while cutting due to the single bevel, and why you have to learn how to use the knife.

This was the unexpected part I thought it’d behave like a chisel, but it's obvious when you think about it - it's the resultant of the two surfaces in contact with the generally compliment material you’re cutting. The resultant is curved desipte the flat surfaces. Got a bit more used to it now but the handle is still very awkward.

Actually, I thought it odd you would be the one to make light of the katana.  You have to admit, it is unique in the world of swords.

Went through a weird meta-awareness phase. Great way to cut through mythical BS. Ironically this started with a long talk with my Japanese friend. He hates Japan, cooks Italian food, respects how the Dutch do everything quick and dirty. We talked about the Japanese tea ceremony in comparison to the English one. He observed the former had at the heart of it a cup of instant tea 

Swords well. My interest started principally because of the steel and craftsmanship. My Father was a farrier and blacksmith. Had a pretty good feel for the forming of iron and steel at a very young age. Magic. Like Bustr said though it's all gone now. Only wing nuts are interested in ancient (and deprecated) methods & weapons. Last vestiges of craftsmanship being rooted out. Even in Japan some traditional disciplines are lost. My father's smithy is long gone. Tried to save one of the anvils but they went to the scrapper. Even the wrought iron gates on Strawberry Fields have been replaced with knock-off replicas.

We're not even driving jet cars like we imagined as children, everyone's afraid of the future, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria! It's all turned to rat-s***, rat-s*** I say! 

[bustr]

There may be hope for Japan in a hidden silver lining to it's declining population.

The current trend is for as many young people who can to leave the rural areas for populations centers in pursuit of the modern life style. Villages and farms are being abandoned along with interest in agriculture or fishing. There are a number who are ditching that lifestyle after being successful in their late 20's and 30's  and bringing the benefits of technology back to the rural areas to farm or reclaim small towns that have been loosing population to create lower cost of living working communities. At some point with a reverse migration like this from the fast paced urban life style, there may well be a renewed interest in traditional crafts and technology. Physical books are in demand by millenials in Japan because they are starting to become tired of being wired all the time. If that cycle can be changed by the millenials wanting to return to physical delayed gratification pursuits. There are many things waiting for them to fill their time with once their head is out of the cloud.

Millenials are the first almost fully cyber addicted generation on earth.   

[morfiend]

Bustr,

  If you have a Katana on the short side,like 27 inches,I can find a home for it!!!

  Long ago in a far away place I too used to practice Bushido,well it was part of the Akijistsu I was trying to learn!

  I always had an issue with the blade lengths,28 plus inches always messed me up,I actually need a blade 26 and 1/2 inches but a 27 would do,just about impossible to find unless you have one custom made. My wife's sister lived in Japan for several years and I pleaded with her to get me on from there but I think my wife intervened!  She doesnt like me playing with sharp pointy things.......


   

[Zoney]

Bustr,

  If you have a Katana on the short side,like 27 inches,I can find a home for it!!!

  Long ago in a far away place I too used to practice Bushido,well it was part of the Akijistsu I was trying to learn!

  I always had an issue with the blade lengths,28 plus inches always messed me up,I actually need a blade 26 and 1/2 inches but a 27 would do,just about impossible to find unless you have one custom made. My wife's sister lived in Japan for several years and I pleaded with her to get me on from there but I think my wife intervened!  She doesnt like me playing with short pointy things.......


   

Fixed

[FBKampfer]

As a chef, I'll swear by Classic line by Wüsthof and a good whet stone. Never have found a better knife for the price. You can pay a couple hundred for some fancy knife from Japan, at the end of the day, I bet mine still cuts better.

I fully recommend them to anyone shopping for a good kitchen knife. Consistent, high quality, and just damn good looking knives.

[nrshida]

Long ago in a far away place I too used to practice Bushido,well it was part of the Akijistsu I was trying to learn!

You wingnut! Drag yourself into being trendy and cool and tactical and buy one of those new fangled Webley–Fosbery Automatic Revolvers in full auto

there may well be a renewed interest in traditional crafts and technology.

Things get lost in a single generation though, knowledge, techniques, mastery which is often not documented. A shame.

As a chef, I'll swear by Classic line by Wüsthof and a good whet stone.

Look very nice Kampfer. Where do you hold it, hand way up the handle right close to the edge? Index finger on the blade?

[morfiend]

You wingnut! Drag yourself into being trendy and cool and tactical and buy one of those new fangled Webley–Fosbery Automatic Revolvers in full auto

  When the zombie Apocalypse happens I'd prefer to have medivel weapons thank you very much! Them new fangled shooting irons tend to run out of ammo,lead and/or powder! I can always make more arrows and sharpen a pointy stick! Oh ya plenty of rocks around for my sling too!!



   

 PS: I have a complete set of forged Lagostina knives,didnt get the damascus steel ones,just the cheap J,A,pan company steel.

[FBKampfer]

Look very nice Kampfer. Where do you hold it, hand way up the handle right close to the edge? Index finger on the blade?

Lol, sometimes  . It really depends on what I'm doing. Chopping herbs, slicing lemons or oranges, or trimming a large roast or leg of lamb, and things like that I usually just hold the handle like normal.

Skinning potatoes, or trimming smaller cuts like a flank steak, or trying to get a really thin slice, I usually grip the blade with my thumb and two forefingers, and my pinky and ring finger around the handle behind the bolster.


I much prefer my Classic Ikon for that (instead of the restaurant's plain Classics) though, since it has no bolster, and is counter- weighted at the base of the handle. It just more comfortable to hold that way.

[Gman]

Tamahagane steel constructed Japanese swords are impressive, but there are other swords and types that are equally impressive. Just one example, like the Ulfberht is just as much a technical marvel for its time period,  yet nobody holds the opinion that they are some sword without peer, which they absolutely were for their time period.

I own many swords, many of them Japanese and Chinese in origin, from WW2 officers made from pretty cheap steel, to full length katana and wakizashi that are several hundred years old.  I'm also a member of the Japanese Sword society of Canada, and a friend of mine runs the http://www.nihonto.ca/  company, sourcing Japanese swords and weapons for commercial sale.  While the time and techniques put into a modern commissioned Japanese sword constructed by authentic/historical methods, especially the polishing and sharpening, can be appreciated, such a sword really doesn't perform or resist edge damage all that much better than a modern sword in the $1000 range.  Blended carbon steel swords these days made with 1095/1060/1045 blended steel that are deferentially hardened, I'd put them up against any priceless Tamahagane constructed sword with a 3 month polish job, in terms of cutting/battle performance and edge damage resistance.  That's how good the modern steel and techniques have gotten in punching out blades that perform.  Are they as pretty?  No, and obviously they hold little historical value or significance, but they work as well as anything ever made.

Considering how many swords companies like Paul Chen and Ronin Katana sell, and how many students like ITTA and other iaido/kenjutsu/tameshigiri schools have, plus the kendo clubs around here, I think the interest in Japanese swords and swordsmanship is at an all time high.  My first short story I based on the missing Honjo Masamune in fact, mostly due to the current level of interest in swords in general. 

Bustr - you ever do any work with/for James Williams in California?

For cooking blades I've used the same Spyderco set they gave us when my former company used to distribute their knives, I don't think one of them was retail more than $100, and they still sharpen up like they were new.  MBS26 stainless steel, nothing special at all.