Formation Flying

[Puma44]

hehe

A guy that taught me some about formation flying made me join without using power adjustments.  Of course lead has to cooperate and we were in airplanes with similar performance...good learning experience.

Another thing I see in game is lead flying at airspeed extremes, especially very low climb speeds.  Lead has to give wing some margin, if Lead is at the limit of aircraft envelope then wing is screwed.

Good point.  Another aspect that is seldom seen or discussed:  energy management.

[morfiend]

Good point.  Another aspect that is seldom seen or discussed:  energy management.

  You guys almost...... sound like you know what you're doing!

     





     

[Kingpin]

Y'all have a lot more experience than me, but one thing I thought might be helpful to add to this thread, based on the wingman clinics I've done with quite a few squad wing-pairs, is maintaining a combat spread (500-800 yards apart, line abreast) after making a 90-degree tac (or "crossing") turn.

What often happens is a lead calls a turn and immediately makes a turn away from his wingman.  The wingman then follows, but this results in them now being in trail, instead of maintaining combat spread.

The basics of a tac turn are simple and make it easy to maintain formation:

1) The lead calls the tac turn (left or right)
2) The outside element turns first (if turning left, the element on the right is "outside", if turning right the element on the left if "outside").
3) The inside element waits (stays on current heading) until the outside element is nose on and then begins the turn.  In other words, as inside element you wait to turn until your wingman is pointing at you (at roughly at your 5 o'clock or 7 o'clock position depending on the direction of turn), and before they reach your 6 o'clock position. 
4) The lead and wing elements will have swapped (crossed) to opposite sides of the formation but will have maintained the same combat spread.

See the pics below:





One key here is for the both elements to turn at roughly the same rate (bank-angle and G).  Learning to make standard rate turns together is something to practice. 

I think this is also good for the wingman to lose the habit of trying to follow the lead around through turns, and instead learn to trust that proper timing and execution of maneuvers will keep you in positions of mutual support.

Hope this post is helpful too.

<S>
Kingpin

[Puma44]

Great stuff to add, Kingpin!  TAC turns are very rarely seen in game.  To do them effectively requires a lot of practice, practice, practice.......  They can also be done comm out.  This adds a whole new dimension and requires even more practice. 

There are also in place turns, cross turns, and partial turns that again require dedicated practice and can also be accomplished common out.

Your "crossover" turn to the right diagram should be labeled as a TAC right or 90 right.  Labeling it as a crossover isn't accurate and may lead to confusion with an actual "cross turn" 

[Kingpin]

plished common out.
Your "crossover" turn to the right diagram should be labeled as a TAC right or 90 right.  Labeling it as a crossover isn't accurate and may lead to confusion with an actual "cross turn" 

Agreed.  Unfortunately, that was a sourced image from the web and the only one I could find clearly demonstrating a TAC right. 

Here is another source (Navy flight manual) which elaborates on and diagrams tac turns, in place turns and cross turns:

http://navyflightmanuals.tpub.com/P-1221/Tac-Turn-27.htm

I am a big believer in the effectiveness of maintaining a combat spread for everything from SA, to defensive support, to bracketing into a merge.  Keeping formation with minimal effort was something I practiced extensively with my FSO wingman and is a huge advantage in squad ops, as it reduces time spent looking inside your cockpit or directly at your wingman.  Instead it lets you fly more with your eyes outside the cockpit - a huge advantage over the guy staring at his wingman to stay in formation.

<S>
Kingpin

[Puma44]

The Navy Manual is a great resource for the basics.

Just for consideration, an 800 ft spread should be the minimum.  Any closer risks both members of a two ship getting tagged by someone who is accurate out to 500 ft or beyond.  A wider spread also allows the supporting fighter time and distance to maneuver out of plane to a firing solution on the bandit without being close enough for a switch up.  Too close and the bandit can simple switch off to the supporting wingman if the geometry favors it.   

[hyzer]

VF-17 did some line abreast practice, while it sounds so easy, it was incredibly hard to get, and keep, everyone lined up.  This was in the training arena with long icon ranges, FSO icon ranges would be WAY harder.

[Puma44]

You're correct Hyzer.  It takes a lot of dedicated practice and teamwork to make it work correctly.  It's essential to practice with the same wingman in order to learn each other's flying style and habits.  Unfortunately, disciplined formation flying is rarely seen in game.  Typically, most of the in game formations are of the "same way, same day" style. 

                                                             
                                                                 

[Puma44]

Great stuff to add, Kingpin!  TAC turns are very rarely seen in game.  To do them effectively requires a lot of practice, practice, practice.......  They can also be done comm out.  This adds a whole new dimension and requires even more practice. 

There are also in place turns, cross turns, and partial turns that again require dedicated practice and can also be accomplished common out.

Your "crossover" turn to the right diagram should be labeled as a TAC right or 90 right.  Labeling it as a crossover isn't accurate and may lead to confusion with an actual "cross turn" 

Spell checker strikes again!   "Common out" should read "comm out".

[FLS]

VF-17 did some line abreast practice, while it sounds so easy, it was incredibly hard to get, and keep, everyone lined up.  This was in the training arena with long icon ranges, FSO icon ranges would be WAY harder.

That's why the formation leader needs to state heading, altitude, and speed. You're too far away for visual references. In Aces High people aren't used to flying a given heading and speed but it's a basic skill for professional pilots.

[Puma44]

That's why the formation leader needs to state heading, altitude, and speed. You're too far away for visual references. In Aces High people aren't used to flying a given heading and speed but it's a basic skill for professional pilots.

Very true.  But, with motivation to learn it can be done effectively, completely comm out.

Several years ago, Jappa52 asked to learn formation flying.  We started from the very basic level and over the next few months were flying completely comm out tactical formation to and from the engagement area.  We did fingertip formation takeoffs, tactical splits off the runway, tactical enroute, and into engagements with mutual support fights (a whole other subject of discussion).   We would then RTB in tactical spread to an overhead pitch out to landing, or fly a fingertip formation approach and landing.

Jappa52 was completely new to formation flying.  But, he was extremely motivated and willing to dedicate the time and learn.  In time, we were a well oiled tactical team.   Very rewarding and a lot of fun but, a lot of hard work and practice to get there. 

[FLS]

I agree it's a useful skill in Aces High. I also recommend formation aerobatics for skill building.

The easiest and probably most fun way to be successful in Aces High is with a good wingman.   

[Puma44]

Absolutely! 

[Oldman731]

Several years ago, Jappa52 asked to learn formation flying. 

I remember that.

- oldman (who is beginning to forget much else)

[1stpar3]

The Navy Manual is a great resource for the basics.

Just for consideration, an 800 ft spread should be the minimum.  Any closer risks both members of a two ship getting tagged by someone who is accurate out to 500 ft or beyond.  A wider spread also allows the supporting fighter time and distance to maneuver out of plane to a firing solution on the bandit without being close enough for a switch up.  Too close and the bandit can simple switch off to the supporting wingman if the geometry favors it.   

500 FEET? You talking about Icon ranges which are yrds(i believe or actual 12" ft)? I get killed by lots of guys inside 500 yrds  lol   Of coarse convergence settings are why most players cant hit much inside 500 FT or 45 yrds. They set up for the max range and spray all the way in. It gets confusing with the Foot and Yard terms. 1 persons ft is yards and vice versa Si i am assuming the distances are referred too in YARDS and ft was mistyped?