Author Topic: BFM / ACM Training Aid  (Read 3128 times)

Offline nrshida

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BFM / ACM Training Aid
« on: August 25, 2017, 01:54:52 PM »
With the anticipated influx of Steam players, I had an idea to teach BFM and ACM without needing a 1 on 1 session with a trainer or anyone else:

In many racing games a ghost car is available to show the previous or fastest lap. I was thinking it would be useful to have an area in the Training Arena or in an offline mode where one aircraft is flying a set BFM pattern, with it's icon displaying the manoeuvre it is performing. For instance CHA for Chandelle, IMM for Immelmann etc. The ghost plane would fly it's manoeuvre and then gently fly back to a start position or otherwise link several pieces of complimentary endless BFM together: IMM, SPS, IMM, SPS. HYO, LYO, HYO, LYO... etc.

A new player could try to copy the 'ideal' manoeuvre, trying to follow or match position with the ghost plane practicing plane control and muscle memory.


Secondly, two ghost planes could demonstrate relative ACM, like high yo-yo following a flat turn, BRD, flat scissors, rolling scissors, Hartmann Manoeuvre etc. The new player could then follow either ghost plane and gain orientation or understanding.

I further thought the film viewer could have an additional 'output a set piece' feature which could be submitted for later use by anyone. These could be gathered in especially interesting fights or choreographed set pieces of ACM. Perhaps the trainers could approve those. The film viewer could record the two spline curves and relevant positional vectors and velocities, and just transplant those flightpaths to the relevant training space. Thus the BFM / ACM ghost plane area could be an organically growing feature. Also skilled / experienced players could 'fly their own tutorials' so-to-speak. A huge variety of different plane matchups could be presented.

I think this could compliment the new video tutorials and would be an advanced and innovative approach to overcoming the steep initial learning curve.

Worth a constructive discussion perhaps?



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Offline Mar

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Re: BFM / ACM Training Aid
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2017, 03:33:08 PM »
Awesome idea! A button to start the ghost in front of you so you could follow it easily would be excellent.
𝒻𝓇𝑜𝓂 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝓈𝒽𝒶𝒹𝑜𝓌𝓈 𝑜𝒻 𝓌𝒶𝓇'𝓈 𝓅𝒶𝓈𝓉 𝒶 𝒹𝑒𝓂𝑜𝓃 𝑜𝒻 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝒶𝒾𝓇 𝓇𝒾𝓈𝑒𝓈 𝒻𝓇𝑜𝓂 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝑔𝓇𝒶𝓋𝑒

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Offline FLS

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Re: BFM / ACM Training Aid
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2017, 03:49:31 PM »
The big difference is aircraft don't follow a race track. I think it's better to just explain and demonstrate lead and lag pursuit.

Offline Mar

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Re: BFM / ACM Training Aid
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2017, 03:53:20 PM »
A race track is a good start for someone who's never BFM'd before. :aok
𝒻𝓇𝑜𝓂 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝓈𝒽𝒶𝒹𝑜𝓌𝓈 𝑜𝒻 𝓌𝒶𝓇'𝓈 𝓅𝒶𝓈𝓉 𝒶 𝒹𝑒𝓂𝑜𝓃 𝑜𝒻 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝒶𝒾𝓇 𝓇𝒾𝓈𝑒𝓈 𝒻𝓇𝑜𝓂 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝑔𝓇𝒶𝓋𝑒

  "Onward to the land of kings—via the sky of aces!"
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Offline FLS

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Re: BFM / ACM Training Aid
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2017, 04:24:36 PM »
There are many ways to go wrong. It's best to have a trainer watch you and tell you what you need to do and why it works.

Offline Oldman731

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Re: BFM / ACM Training Aid
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2017, 05:57:52 PM »
it would be useful to have an area in the Training Arena or in an offline mode where one aircraft is flying a set BFM pattern, with it's icon displaying the manoeuvre it is performing.


Seems to me that Chuck Yeager's Combat Flight Simulator had this feature.

You, of course, were much too young to remember that, but it worked very well.

+1

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Offline FLS

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Re: BFM / ACM Training Aid
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2017, 06:40:23 PM »
I remember "Yeager vision" in that game.

The offline drones are useful if you know what to practice.

Offline JunkyII

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Re: BFM / ACM Training Aid
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2017, 07:48:19 PM »
Definitely deserves a good discussion but you won't get that from a certain someone in here....get laid out 1v1 but he knows everything lol


Airspawns could put you behind the ghost plane and let you follow behind it.....dont they already have these in the offline missions?
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Offline Mar

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Re: BFM / ACM Training Aid
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2017, 08:39:22 PM »
This would be much different. You can't get the current AI to fly specific maneuvers as far as I know.

Or wait, you meant the air spawns that some missions can start you with? That's a great option too. That would start you at the right airspeed to follow the ghost plane right away.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 08:42:05 PM by Mar »
𝒻𝓇𝑜𝓂 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝓈𝒽𝒶𝒹𝑜𝓌𝓈 𝑜𝒻 𝓌𝒶𝓇'𝓈 𝓅𝒶𝓈𝓉 𝒶 𝒹𝑒𝓂𝑜𝓃 𝑜𝒻 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝒶𝒾𝓇 𝓇𝒾𝓈𝑒𝓈 𝒻𝓇𝑜𝓂 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝑔𝓇𝒶𝓋𝑒

  "Onward to the land of kings—via the sky of aces!"
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Offline nrshida

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Re: BFM / ACM Training Aid
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2017, 02:26:38 AM »
The big difference is aircraft don't follow a race track.

The race track is analogous to the flightpath of the 'ideal' manoeuvre. There are many lines even within the confines of a race track.


I think it's better to just explain and demonstrate lead and lag pursuit.

I'm suggesting this as a starting point. Pursuit curves might be an intermediate topic for noobs, after BFM. Could also show these with such a system I think.


It's best to have a trainer watch you and tell you what you need to do and why it works.

1 on 1 training would be ideal. What if Steam brings a LARGE dollop of players, many new to flight sims? Then the appointment with an individual trainer approach would be overloaded. Also if this feature is known it might attrack new players to a genre they might have been wary of before.


Seems to me that Chuck Yeager's Combat Flight Simulator had this feature.

Oh I didn't know that. Aces High is my first flight sim. Apologies to the original innovator  :salute


Airspawns could put you behind the ghost plane and let you follow behind it.....

Good idea.

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Offline JunkyII

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Re: BFM / ACM Training Aid
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2017, 09:30:15 AM »
See Rule #4
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 01:16:06 PM by Skuzzy »
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Offline colmbo

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Re: BFM / ACM Training Aid
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2017, 10:51:00 AM »
IMO you won't learn a maneuver by following a drone through it.  Sure, you can manipulate the control to stay with the drone and you will fly the same maneuver but you won't have a good understanding of what it takes to fly the maneuver.  Will you really know how to fly it without following the drone? 
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Offline Mar

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Re: BFM / ACM Training Aid
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2017, 11:10:15 AM »
How could you not have a good understanding of what it takes to fly the maneuver after you've just flown the maneuver?

I agree that following a drone is one thing and doing it on your own is another, but following the drone is still a good start.
𝒻𝓇𝑜𝓂 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝓈𝒽𝒶𝒹𝑜𝓌𝓈 𝑜𝒻 𝓌𝒶𝓇'𝓈 𝓅𝒶𝓈𝓉 𝒶 𝒹𝑒𝓂𝑜𝓃 𝑜𝒻 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝒶𝒾𝓇 𝓇𝒾𝓈𝑒𝓈 𝒻𝓇𝑜𝓂 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝑔𝓇𝒶𝓋𝑒

  "Onward to the land of kings—via the sky of aces!"
  Oh, and zack1234 rules. :old:

Offline nrshida

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Re: BFM / ACM Training Aid
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2017, 11:51:25 AM »
Will you really know how to fly it without following the drone?

Has to help develop muscle memory and the visual cues. There are precedents in other sports. Also when you do get a session with a trainer or squadmate, the conversations are going to make a lot more sense. Then the refinement can come with time.

It's only a creative suggestion. Just looking forward and trying to help.

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Offline JunkyII

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Re: BFM / ACM Training Aid
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2017, 12:11:13 PM »
Higher level ACM can only be 1. Taught by people who can perform very high level CAM and 2. Only be enhanced from practice vs others with high level or better.

The OP is not asking for a high level, this is like follow a drone through a split S or immelman so that when someone talks to them about it they don't have to explain those things because they already have the basic understanding.
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