Design discussion for October Scenario (Target Rabaul)

[Krusty]

Arlo, it's not a double standard. That's not the issue. The issue is that neither is ideal, but based on how AH scenarios play out, based on the typical player experience, the allies will trounce the axis in this setup if implemented as a typical AH scenario. They just will. 6 ways from Sunday. We're not recreating the actual type of combat here. We're not simulating the same problems real pilots had, the exact situations they went into, that balanced the scales and made it a much closer fight. We're not simulating any of that, because with the players we'll get and the way scenarios are set up, that just can't happen. What we're replicating is just the feel of it, and that "feel" won't be true to the real thing if you've got nobody showing up on the axis side for the allies to dominate.

I want you to take a good look at this. This is the most common Japanese plane in 1943 against the plane you pointed a virtual gun at me to stop me from even suggesting I remove it from the lineup:



I know you have your favorite ride, but let's be honest... You're the one that doesn't want a fair fight in this setup. Hell I don't even demand a fair fight, just a fair setup.

[Arlo]

Again .... here:

Historical feeling versus balance and fun being the issue, I suppose since the Allied plane set is actually quite accurate (with some examples missing entirely) Brooke could simply wipe the IJ planes that weren't actually there completely from the board and just give the Axis a large numerical advantage with nothing but A6M5s. But I don't see how that makes a 'better' historical accuracy argument. We all know that it's about both immersion and a battle setup that's not strictly a 'side A shooter/side B target' thing. That's tricky to pull off in late 43/44/45 Pacific scenarios. Us Pac/USN players really do appreciate the complexity and this is a rare treat for us, as is. I bet Bong fans and Pac (in general) fans feel the same.

I have faith in the Axis players to make this a competitive and challenging event and hope to see the effort to poke holes in it not gain momentum ... like .... every .... single .... pac .... event .... in the past (except PH and Midway).

But since this is a design discussion and criticism is part of it - how about some suggestions that don't try to make this yet another F4F battle (which Rabaul wasn't)? What would you do to 'fix' this to be a fun battle for all? The Allies have a limited but accurate plane set. the Axis have a modified (for balance .... in their favor) plane set. As I said before, would numbers in favor of the Axis (1.25 to 1, 1.4 to 1, 1.5 to 1, 1.75 to 1) with a more historically accurate plane set be acceptable? As I said, that's just one other historical tweaking instead of another .... but I'd be good with it. Maybe something not yet tried in twenty years or so will come up.

And here ....

As Brooke mentioned, this plane set and the rationale behind it was not kept secret before the vote. Never-the-less, if we were to neuter the IJ set from the standing design what's your next suggestion to re-attain balance without a replacement of one of the U.S. FGs with F4Fs (again, a contradictory move in the face of demanding plane set purity)? Is it a ration adjustment of more overall players on the IJ side? Right now Brooke has 34 IJ fighters to 30 Allied. He's dealing with reduced scenario participation already. But maybe an adjustment will draw more interest. 40 IJ fighters? 30 A6M5s and 10 Ki-61s? That's 1.3 to 1 (or so). 50 IJ fighters 36 A6M5s and 14 Ki-61s? That's a little over 1.6 to 1. With the IJ fighters needing to shoot down bombers then the ava fighter match-up is kinda shifted, as well.

Or would you still want to replace one (or more) allied fighter groups with ahistorical F4Fs alongside that, as well?

What part of my being unfair is in any of that?

[Devil 505]

I think Arlo believes that I was suggesting total removal of the Corsiar in favor of the Wildcat - which I'm not. Same for the P-38's. I would just reduce those aircraft to single squadrons and make up the difference with P-39's, F4F's, and especially P-40's. At the same time I'd totally remove the Frank and George and spilt the Axis evenly between A6m5's and Ki-61's.

BTW Arlo, VF-17 used the F4U-1 in combat - and you know this.

Stop claiming that I'm somehow trying to remove your squadron from the event.

[TequilaChaser]

I really don't want to get in to it,  about uber F4U1A or Uber Ki84s(which is considered late war, right?)

I am probably the only player, that is really wanting to participate in this "Rabual Scenario" that actually would rather fly the F4U-1 over any other F4U series model....

1 fact is the F4U-1 and F4U-1A do not fly the same and have very significant differences regarding turning and turnrate (especially when flaps are deployed)..... The -1A is quicker acceleration and climbing...the -1 whips the -1A, 1C, 1D and -4 F4U models once you get to the 2nd notch of flaps deployed all the way through full(all) flaps deployed

If you think the Ki84 is TOO UBER, why not drop it but replace it with more NIKIs and Tony's... All of the Axis planes are capable to put up a respectable defense with their cannon mounted armament

If Brooke is willing, let him rework it (or just go and do it Brooke) to where the ki84 groups will be replaced by Niki's and Tony's (or The best model of the A6m series)

I think everyone will be happy if we (if Brooke) can keep the scenario as close to history as possible, but at the same time making it to where people will register,  get involved and show up every frame to play....because the event offers either side a solid chance to win or at least a draw, like we just had in the "Big Week scenario"

TC

[Arlo]

BTW Arlo, VF-17 used the F4U-1 in combat - and you know this.

VF-17s initial complement of Corsairs were -1s and they carrier qualed with them. Based on their experience with the -1 members of VF-17 recommended changes that Chance-Vought implemented into the -1A (and shipped field modification kits to VF-17 which arrived simultaneously with their arrival at New Georgia). (Best I can remember from Blackburn's book I lent out but never got back.)

VF-17s Corsairs were all either replacement F4U-1As or field modified to such. There were no VF-17 F4U-1s at Rabaul.

[TequilaChaser]

VF-17s initial complement of Corsairs were -1s and they carrier qualed with them. Based on their experience with the -1 members of VF-17 recommended changes that Chance-Vought implemented into the -1A (and shipped field modification kits to VF-17 which arrived simultaneously with their arrival at New Georgia). (Best I can remember from Blackburn's book I lent out but never got back.)

VF-17s Corsairs were all either replacement F4U-1As or field modified to such. There were no VF-17 F4U-1s at Rabaul.

Correct

[Devil 505]

VF-17s initial complement of Corsairs were -1s and they carrier qualed with them. Based on their experience with the -1 members of VF-17 recommended changes that Chance-Vought implemented into the -1A (and shipped field modification kits to VF-17 which arrived simultaneously with their arrival at New Georgia). (Best I can remember from Blackburn's book I lent out but never got back.)

VF-17s Corsairs were all either replacement F4U-1As or field modified to such. There were no VF-17 F4U-1s at Rabaul.

I could have sworn that they originally deployed to land bases with the -1's and later received the -1A's. I have Blackburns' book so I can review the sequence of events tonight. 

[Arlo]

I could have sworn that they originally deployed to land bases with the -1's and later received the -1A's. I have Blackburns' book so I can review the sequence of events tonight.

The planes were -1s when the went through the canal and they received orders that they were to be put ashore in the Solomons while they were on their way to Pearl. Chance-Vought shipped upgrade kits.

[Fencer51]

I think Arlo believes that I was suggesting total removal of the Corsiar in favor of the Wildcat - which I'm not. Same for the P-38's. I would just reduce those aircraft to single squadrons and make up the difference with P-39's, F4F's, and especially P-40's. At the same time I'd totally remove the Frank and George and spilt the Axis evenly between A6m5's and Ki-61's.

Yet P-39s and F4Fs were not used over Rabaul ever.  Some P-40s were used in late December 43.

I would suggest that the actual allied aircraft be used as the most people who have 'units' are on that side.  This includes btw the B-25C in lieu of the H.  To balance a substitution of aircraft on the Axis side would be needed or else its going to be lonely over Rabaul.  The mix that Brooke has now is probably the best at first glance, and I have not spent my normal amount of time playing with the design, as it is not my job anymore, to have any opinion other than that.

[Devil 505]

The planes were -1s when the went through the canal and they received orders that they were to be put ashore in the Solomons while they were on their way to Pearl. Chance-Vought shipped upgrade kits.

I stand corrected. I found in Blackburn's book where Vf-17 arrived on Espiritu Santo on October 25th, and the pilots of Vf-12 (who had just transitioned from the F4U-1 to the F-6F) were "on our flight line drooling over our new 1A's."

[Arlo]

I stand corrected. I found in Blackburn's book where Vf-17 arrived on Espiritu Santo on October 25th, and the pilots of Vf-12 (who had just transitioned from the F4U-1 to the F-6F) were "on our flight line drooling over our new 1A's."

(I've quite a bit of time researching VF-17 .... there's a reason for that.)  

[Delirium]

As much as a Rabaul scenario would be great, it fails to replicate the experienced Axis flyers that may have been present. Much like an Eastern Front scenario, it is almost impossible to balance a scenario using historical match ups that cannot reflect experience.

The answer? Promoting attendance from mature virtual flyers that have a love of history, rather than just a love of winning.

[Arlo]

You may be onto something there, Del.

I, alone, am a balancing factor (being the absolute worst stick in VF-17 - if not in AH).

[branch37]

From what I can remember there were RNZAF P-40s in the theatre but I can't remember if they were at Rabaul specifically. Blackburn talks about flying high cover in F4Us for B-25s and TBMs. The P-40s flew close escort.

20 mph less in the F4U-1 won't make a difference at high alt. Even against the Ki-84. Unless they sucker the corsairs into a close in turning fight.


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[Arlo]

Unless they sucker the corsairs into a close in turning fight.

I'm your man, skipper!