Created a test map, tried to load it

[Halo46]

Here's my list of things we had in AH2, that we don't have now:

1. Long, clear lines of sight from a dominant, commanding, somewhat concealed position (read that as elevation) to areas where the enemy spawns in/approaches from/sets up at.  The distance from position to enemy varied from 1.8k to 5k. (Think of the hills at the 85 spawn on Compello, 135/136 in Ozkansas, the center of NDIsles, etc).  These areas were fought hard for, and it was difficult to knock the enemy off of.
2. Areas of prime, excellent cover that you fought over. (Think of the center berms at 85 spawn or 135/136 or 34+26/Montis.)
3. Opportunities to rush a gauntlet to gain an advantage. (Think of the beach at the 85 spawn, or the hill in front of the main lines in the Crater, both of which had cover you could leapfrog from and to.)
4. Confining terrain features that channeled or bottlenecked GV play, like the mountains in the Crater, or the ocean and the hill at 85 spawn, or the water at 135/136, the skinny islands on tagma.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I am confused, are you wanting to recreate places to run up kill counts? I don't understand how that is better gv play. It seems to me like areas that allow you to safely maneuver ending in large, open, rolling terrain to fight it out might be preferable to a wide open kill zone for spawn camping. I am just curious since I have never cared much for the ground game, especially spawn camping.

[8thJinx]

Kills in a GV this past summer, according to the stats, are less than half of what they were near the end of AH2.  Let that sink in.  Half.  Something decimated the GV game.



 

[bustr]

Experiment and stop trying to bring back AH2, the polymesh in AH3 is different, the tiles are different and many of the objects are different or no longer in the object menu. Work with what you have. I use a grass brush to open agrarian tile vistas for long range view and shooting. I set GV spawns to follow combat because our numbers a low so it brings the largest number of players willing into a fight around feilds. I experiment with features, like opening vistas in the agrarian tiles that already are setup for tank combat by Waffle. I experiment with bridges\rivers and earth ramps in Oceania along with setting spawns to follow combat. I set airfields with only map rooms on them to look at how much towns contribute to stalled out fights and if that configuration would promote activity, which it does.

I am not living in the past, I'm using what I have now and the current population numbers as a key to design. Here is a hard secret about terrains. All of the clever ideas you incorporate to promote a specific kind of combat scenario will fail just like buying your cat a hot new toy and he likes the bag it came in better. All of the great combat scenario terrain setups you remember from the past were lucky coincidences because players decided they liked it in that era of the game. Not the terrain builder had a clue that they would use it that way. All you can do is experiment with ideas on a test terrain and drive them offline to make sure the scale will work. Then add them into your terrain with all the other clever ideas you think will WOW GVers. Then hope maybe one of them will be a crater tank town or V85 spawn battle. The past is gone, build the future and take your chances.

If you don't you will learn zilch about the current terrain editor or what players will do or not do with your ideas. Stop living in the past about terrains, it will make you un-happy as heck like you are right now.   

[8thJinx]

I see now that the idea of an 85 spawn area is gone forever.  I do however, want to at least recreate the "landmarks" of those successful areas:

1. Long, clear lines of sight from a dominant, commanding, somewhat concealed positions.  Areas that are fought hard for, and difficult to knock the enemy off of.
2. Areas of prime, excellent cover that you can fight over.
3. Opportunities to rush a gauntlet to gain an advantage.
4. Confining terrain features that channeled or bottlenecked GV play.

There are no areas anywhere in the AH3 maps that have 1+2+3+4.  And I just have this really strong, deep belief that when there were landmarks present in a past evolution that lead to positive outcomes (even if they were the result of happy accidents), you should do everything you can to repeat them in future evolutions.     

I'll keep experimenting.

One last question.  Is the placing-an-object-in-the-terrain a hard and fast rule, like you can't place ANY individual trees or bushes on a terrain, or is there a count that you have to stay under per square mile, etc.  That would be helpful to know. 

[Easyscor]

One last question.  Is the placing-an-object-in-the-terrain a hard and fast rule, like you can't place ANY individual trees or bushes on a terrain, or is there a count that you have to stay under per square mile, etc.  That would be helpful to know.

As bustr said, experiment. If you see an object in the TE's list, try it. You saw what happened with ruin##, that's why you need to experiment.

And don't forget, the choice of terrsets can make all the difference.

[8thJinx]

So there's no hard and fast rule?  I thought frame rate was the issue.

[Easyscor]

Well don't go craaazy and do it everywhere.

Put these keywords into your head, experiment, and test test test.

[8thJinx]

Test, test, test.  Got it.  But from what, a plane, a gv?  And do you do an entire terrain first, then drop in objects, and test, or do you test just a small area of plain terrain first, then keep building, then test again.

Kind of weird that there's no compendium or knowledge base on how to do this.

[Easyscor]

Don't start with your MA masterpiece. Create a 64x64 terrain exclusively for testing stuff you want to try out or don't understand.

The editor will run faster and build the terrain faster and it will keep all your tests in one place without breaking your final terrain.

Test both in the TE and offline in game. Never upload any test terrain. When you have your MA terrain in the final stages, yes, then upload it.

Use CMeye to quickly view the terrain with the HUD visible for Alt feedback. Occasionally fly it to confirm the scale of things, it can be deceiving.

Manuals:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,386033.msg5131623.html#msg5131623

Still haven't found time to finish the latest version, probably in December after Pearl Harbor is up in the Ava

[8thJinx]

Got it, thanks. 

But just for my own education, if the frame rate in a 64x64 test terrain is ok for me flying offline, it will be ok on a 528x528 terrain on a server?  Is it that simple?

[Easyscor]

A 64^2 should be the same but it really depends on your video card. I run a 1070 so nothing I can throw at it slows it down. Objects vary with the number of draw calls. Count the number of bridges visible at the same time in bustr's terrains and try not to exceed whatever that number is. Really, there's no hard rule for this because we don't know what objects you're talking about. The vehicles Hitech gave us are a heavy graphics load for instance and I think bustr said they weren't allowed for that reason, not sure that's the reason, but you get the idea.

I shouldn't need to say it, but don't put any guns except shore batteries into the final terrain.

In the AvA for our tank battles, as it might relate to an MA terrain, we often use a careful combination of rivers, bridges and tree lines. When the terrain tile doesn't fit, we move the bridge and if it still doesn't work, we move the river. There are many things you can do to create good tank battlefields but the best ones won't be the conducive to long range snipping IMO. They will be more along the lines of a first person shooter running between building or hiding in ambush along the way. As in AH2, the winners will be the ones who know and take advantage of the terrain. My opinion is worth what you paid for it so go experiment and have some fun along the way.

Glad to see you working in the TE now.

 

[8thJinx]

Thank you for finally connecting the dots for me: the issue is drawing the inserted objects and terrain details into the individual player's field of view.  I thought it was a total count across the entire terrain, but now the light bulb went off.  It's the player's machine handling the terrain and objects, not the server handling all the players and the terrain.   

[Easyscor]

That's true as far as it goes. By design, using standard object groups like small airfields, MA terrains do try to control the overall object count, yes, but you are not likely to create an issue anyway.

FYI, although it should never apply to your project, if a builder exceeds the 50,000 count, some of the objects won't react correctly when they are destroyed. But again, you'll never want to put anywhere near that many objects into an MA terrain. The limit affects SEA and AvA terrains where you'll see counts in the high 40K were extra targets are included. Besides, I don't think you'd ever be allowed those kind of counts in a small MA terrain.

[Halo46]

Kills in a GV this past summer, according to the stats, are less than half of what they were near the end of AH2.  Let that sink in.  Half.

Ah, so it might be funner to GV now since there are fewer camped spawns! Got it! 

In all seriousness, I wish you the best of luck if you are going to create new maps. More choices are always better than fewer.  Thanks and Sir.