Please rate "Target Rabaul" scenario

[SPKmes]

As I have only been in a couple of scenarios and a bit of FSO this is my limited thoughts.

+3 .... I had fun as I do when I play AH... I did think it was a bit unfair that we had Dar...like we did... as in we had soooo much time to get in place...to be fair it was good work by the scouts also...but I think they too had a small advantage in finding general direction due to the dar.... I think perhaps the fact that it was all carried out in such a small area we could have possibly had less of a dar influence for this one.

let me tell you...when I encountered red...I felt we were the out numbered guys.... hahaha...

Plane choices..Unsure on this side as I didn't even look at the history behind this... I just hoped I had an 84 handy when the F6F and F4U's arrived hahaha....

overall....+3 .... good time.... felt bad for allies in a way.... organised    <S>

[KCDitto]

Guppy,  I completely understand your desire to fly a cartoon battle that represents historical events. I think a lot of us here have some connection with history.

The problem is finding 50 guys who want to fly Zeros against P-38s roping and HO ing them for two lives then the bombers dropping unopposed  for the rest of the frame.

I did not fly the Ki84 against J or L models, so I can't say if it would be  good contest. But I can say that even though 38s got me twice, I never felt completely out planed as I do in a Zero. For that made it challenging and fun.

Those are my thoughts,  I want to have fun, I don't mind a challenge but being completely outclassed is not fun.

[ROC]

I don't mind a challenge but being completely outclassed is not fun.

This is the part right here that gets me.  So many go into an event "knowing" they were outclassed when far more often than not it's the pilot, not the plane, that makes the difference.
From the Allies point of view, specifically frame 4, how'd you like those big old fully loaded B25s getting chewed by Zeros more often than not? On paper, that shouldn't have happened.  When we were able to fill my zero squad with Dantoo's group, it got ugly. As Guppy stated, 50 people in a squad of Zeros like we assembled in frame 4 might not have changed the outcome of the event, it would have or could have been just as bad for the Allies, but it would have been a radically different event simply because of the response time the Zeros had. Every single element of a design must be considered and flown to prove the design, not just rely on statistics.
That is why you need time to properly design, test, verify and prove your battlefield,  we need the time to recruit, to explain to people what can be done, not what should be done. That is why we need time to train the newer players, not on what they think they know, but what they never considered.  That is why we need a design that will invest the time to make sure that the planes can reach targets with enough options to not be so predictable.
It's just a matter of investing the energy into laying out a fight that can be won, then letting the teams have the time to make it happen.  Then, if it goes sideways, it's on the COs and they lost the war, because those things are going to happen.
If you all don't have the February event mostly designed and ready for discussion, you see what is going to happen again, don't you?  Look, it might as well be December.  We are in our Recruit and Train time frame already. If you haven't got an event yet, you have an April time slot.

[Guppy35]

Guppy,  I completely understand your desire to fly a cartoon battle that represents historical events. I think a lot of us here have some connection with history.

The problem is finding 50 guys who want to fly Zeros against P-38s roping and HO ing them for two lives then the bombers dropping unopposed  for the rest of the frame.

I did not fly the Ki84 against J or L models, so I can't say if it would be  good contest. But I can say that even though 38s got me twice, I never felt completely out planed as I do in a Zero. For that made it challenging and fun.

Those are my thoughts,  I want to have fun, I don't mind a challenge but being completely outclassed is not fun.

The problem with that is it becomes "History" vs "Outclassed"

If the idea is to get as many folks in the seats then quit calling it anything historical.  Call it the "Fall Match up".  Pick the map.  Give each side evenly matched rides and have at it.

I've flown a 39 in a scenario against clearly superior birds.  I was outclassed in performance.  How do we not have that?  No point in having P40s in a North Africa Scenario. They're outclassed.  I'd love to fly a 109E Fighter bomber in a Eastern Front scenario.  It got the job because it was outclassed as a fighter.  No point in using Betties ever again or He111s as they are outclassed by other birds.   You get the idea?

It's been said already.  The Japanese side knew where the targets were and where the Allies were coming from.  With DAR is was easy.  So the idea that Zekes were going to get BnZ'd isn't legit unless they gave up the alt they would have had being in position to bounce the Allied Raids.  That's what they did for real.  Read any of the Allied accounts and they were having to deal with Zekes falling on them, not the other way around.  We were covering 25s down low.  We got bounced by Ki-84s.  Not much chance of getting out of that one as the 38Gs were 'outclassed"

Somehow we need to be able to save some semblance of the history and still be able to balance it out.  Sometimes the Allies will have to deal with outclassed in some of their birds and some times the Axis will.  That's kinda how it really was

[KCDitto]

I am with you on that.
I fly em all...  and always axis.... I was talking about get others to do it. I would of flown Zeros in this match up, as a mtater of fact I think I mentioned it in the design thread.

I think that is why BOB is so popular. Bombers make it to target and the fighters are pretty even.

I also think the 12 hour with a start every hour is popular as you get more then 2  damn should not of done thats.   

I don't have all the answers and am not sure there are any.

As ROC said, it would be nice to start working on the next one now

[Hajo]

Ditto BOB works also because the game has the accurate plane set for it.  The designers are handcuffed by such things as plane sets and the amount of space relegated on the map to do an actual battle.

Because of the lack of participation in these events everything has to be shrunk down to accommodate the low amount of participants.  Wonder why bombers are a detriment instead of an asset in this
situation?  And I'm not criticizing our bomber pilots.  They had a distinct disadvantage in this event.  They did very very well considering.                                                       

Way back in Der Grosse Schlag (the first one)  Squadron sizes were set at 12.  We actually had to expand squadron sizes on both sides to accommodate the amount of players that wanted to participate.  Final tally for the squadron I led was 20 registered to fly with the 56th.  The P51 squadrons and 38 squadrons also did increase their sizes as did the Axis JGs' and Allied BGs'..  Now squadrons are 6 aircraft.  Notice a difference?  I wish I knew what changed.  I wish I knew how to fix it.  I had a fantastic Squadron with me at that time.  I don't know if you were around then but my XO was Whels, TC I believe flew with me, Joker1, Rob53, Shamus, EDO,and many more then I can't remember at the moment.  These were veterans of MMOGs for a long time.  The Axis had the same.  It was truly an Epic scenario and everyone who participated in it said the same.  No air Spawns.  Everyone of us had to climb out and rendezvous with other fighter squadrons and the BG stream we were assigned to escort.  We had a large map, Targets were many and the axis scouted to find us.  We sent some FGs out to scout nme fighters and break them up before they could get to the bombers.  The chatter was fantastic.  You may have been escorting "The Bloody 100th" or the" 91st."  Imagine looking down on about 40 to 50 B24s or B17s and looking around and four full fighter squadrons surrounding the Bombers.  The sight was fantastic.  The fights were white knuckle to say the least.  Alas I know some of the problem is that many of the old timers left the game.  A few of us are still here.  Ask Stampf about this scenario or anyone else still here from JG11 at that time who participated.

I wish I knew what happened to cause such a low turnout now.  There were more players in the game at that time though.  Most being veterans of WarBirds and Air Warrior.  Mostly people 30 or over in age I would hazard a guess.  So maybe we had more players then and now with fewer players now the percentages participating of the total base are the same?  Fewer participants?  Less involved with the actual history?  I wish I knew.  I'd love again to see 40 to 50 bombers below me and seeing 30 to 40 other escorts flying along with my squadron escorting them.

With my love of the History of Air Combat in WWII,I wish I had a magic wand. I wish I could use it.  Alas I don't have the magic.  Pity.  We need more players involved.  The numbers are in game.
How do we get them here?  <shrugz>

[Brooke]

You actually asked for advice considering the balancing issues after we discussed using P38Gs;

Literally one day later you posted;

I hear you, Del.  I was trying to get input on how many Ki-84's there should be, though, such as should there be 20 of them, or 16, or 12 or what.  Folks kept not talking about that and instead continuing to belabor things that weren't choices.  Having none of them wasn't a choice.

I wanted to get some input on it, asked several times, got no input, and so Swareiam and I decided without feedback to reduce the number of Ki-84's by 30%.

I can say I appreciate the time and effort you put in. Heck, you added me to the Allied forum even though I could not fly in the event, and it was greatly appreciated.

Many thanks, Del.  I do appreciate that from you, and you are most welcome to be in the forums.  I hope that you can fly in the next one.  <S>!

[Brooke]

Happy Thanksgiving, all! 

[DaddyAce]

+4 overall... I had a great time, got to know and fly with some top grade new (for me) folks, and was motivated to learn a plane better.  My reason for deducting 1, is that I prefer more historically accurate plane matchups.  This being said I support Brooke and CM staff to make the call on setting up a great experience, and you all did that as far as I'm concerned.

Thanks to all!

Happy Thanksgiving!

[pope14]

+4 I thought we could have had done without a dar bar with the scouts we had, but over all fun. After being out of the game for a few years it made me miss scenarios and i cant wait for the next one!

[asterix]

Somehow we need to be able to save some semblance of the history and still be able to balance it out.  Sometimes the Allies will have to deal with outclassed in some of their birds and some times the Axis will.  That's kinda how it really was

You can give inferior side more aircraft, have single bombers instead of bomber formations on some occasions, darbar, altitude constraints...

[Crash Orange]

+ 3. I would have preferred a 1943 plane set. I have also found it more enjoyable to have targets more spread out with multiple lines of approach available so the defenders have to do some work to concentrate their fighters on the bombers - I felt Big Week and Hell over the Hinterland did better in this respect.

[Rocco]

+4 B25's and Zekes going head-on ftw! Had a great time going noe to strike the fleets. Only complaint I have is we couldn't score more than a max 1 point on the ground per sortie. Minor thing in my eyes as I do these events to have fun and I think this scenario brought the fun. This was my 3rd scenario and I'm looking forward to the 4th!
 

[oboe]

+1

I had fun as always but am not a fan of N1Ks and Ki.84s at Rabaul in 1943.   The lopsided Axis victory is probably an indicator of a balance problem in the design, either in scoring or planeset or both.   I was a walkon for this one, so wasn't privy to the mission planning discussions but it felt to me like there wasn't much variety in the missions or targets.   

I have a lot of respect and appreciation for the scenario team and all the guys who step up to lead.   Can't sing you guys' praises enough for the work you do and effort you put in for our enjoyment, and can't wait for the next one!

[Krusty]

While I think the Ki-84 definitely changed the face of this battle, Oboe, I was flying a Ki-61 the entire time and can say I think the reason we won by a landslide was that we caught the bombers unprotected way too many times. In the last frame, however, I couldn't get within 4K of the bombers during the first strike because of their escort. Why weren't they doing that from the start?!

I don't blame the planeset and scoring for the landslide victories. I think that was more a tactical problem.