Lt. Glenn W. Loucks - P-51D "Bloody Rebel!" (5B-S) - 364th FG 385th FS

[perdue3]

The nose art is a copy of pin up art originally painted by the Peruvian artist Joaquin Alberto Vargas y Chávez. His pin up girl art became very popular in the USA in 1940 and his work was used as nose art on a huge number of Allied planes during the war. So its likely there were lots of aircraft using the same pin up as this aircraft. There is a site for Vargas' art here. Its handy sometimes as a second source if the photo of the aircraft isn't good enough to reproduce the  nose art directly.

Never fails to impress.

[Vraciu]

Nice skin Vraciu, looks just right.

The nose art is a copy of pin up art originally painted by the Peruvian artist Joaquin Alberto Vargas y Chávez. His pin up girl art became very popular in the USA in 1940 and his work was used as nose art on a huge number of Allied planes during the war. So its likely there were lots of aircraft using the same pin up as this aircraft. There is a site for Vargas' art here. Its handy sometimes as a second source if the photo of the aircraft isn't good enough to reproduce the  nose art directly.

Thanks, G.


A Vargas girl?   Facepalm.  Of course!   Totally forgot about those.   Good info.   

[Guppy35]

Mustang in background has markings for 385th FS...note stripe height.  (I cannot tell.)

Plane in foreground has 5E code AND YF code.   


(Image removed from quote.)

LOL Quit looking at 1st SF birds.   The stripes on the background bird are the height of the other N2 kites I've shown you.  The image of Dana Kaya damaged was taken while with the 364th not after it went to 1st SF

[Guppy35]

Remember, the only reason we are having the discussion is because I got it wrong on the original profile that Fencer used to do Bloody Rebel! in the first place.

Your redo is based on his skin which is based on my profile with the incorrect stripe height on the fuselage.  If I'd done it right in the first place, you wouldn't be thinking about it at all

[Guppy35]

It occurs to me that no one else will give a damn but me, so if you want leave it as is.  No one will care outside of myself

[Vraciu]

LOL Quit looking at 1st SF birds.   The stripes on the background bird are the height of the other N2 kites I've shown you.  The image of Dana Kaya damaged was taken while with the 364th not after it went to 1st SF

1) The 1st SF airplanes tell you what the 364th planes looked like before they were transferred.   The 5B was NOT overpainted.   In fact, 1st SF appears to have kept the striping that was in place when the aircraft were transferred.

2) I have also shown multiple 364th airplanes with stripes that in no way match yours.

3) 364th had P-51B, C, D, and K.   Ds started with D-5-NAs (your screenshot even shows some non-fillet D models with N2).   The airplane in question is a D-5.    It was almost-certainly in the early batch of arrivals prior to the semi-standardized depot striping you advocate.


Again, this is all conjecture.   Nobody is right or wrong until we have a photo that shows it.

This is a forensics investigation at this point.   We are trying to connect dots.   It is not a matter of what we want it to be but rather what it WAS.

[Vraciu]

Remember, the only reason we are having the discussion is because I got it wrong on the original profile that Fencer used to do Bloody Rebel! in the first place.

Your redo is based on his skin which is based on my profile with the incorrect stripe height on the fuselage.  If I'd done it right in the first place, you wouldn't be thinking about it at all

You are dead wrong there.    I looked up every single stripe variation and simply went with what was plausible.   The only question I had in my mind was whether or not to have a full-height forward stripe and whether or not to leave the margin where the national insignia is on the rest.

I advocate for the stripes shown on the D-5 both Devil and I posted.   But this is just a guess.   It would help to know when this airplane came aboard the squadron.

It occurs to me that no one else will give a damn but me, so if you want leave it as is.  No one will care outside of myself

Well, it's precisely because you give a damn that I am making the effort to find the right answer before I commit to something.

And where the heck is Lyric1 any way?   Someone kick him awake.

[Vraciu]

Here's the short stripe version...

[Guppy35]

1) The 1st SF airplanes tell you what the 364th planes looked like before they were transferred.   The 5B was NOT overpainted.   In fact, 1st SF appears to have kept the striping that was in place when the aircraft were transferred.

2) I have also shown multiple 364th airplanes with stripes that in no way match yours.

3) 364th had P-51B, C, D, and K.   Ds started with D-5-NAs (your screenshot even shows some non-fillet D models with N2).   The airplane in question is a D-5.    It was almost-certainly in the early batch of arrivals prior to the semi-standardized depot striping you advocate.


Again, this is all conjecture.   Nobody is right or wrong until we have a photo that shows it.

This is a forensics investigation at this point.   We are trying to connect dots.   It is not a matter of what we want it to be but rather what it WAS.

Show me an operational 364th flown bird with the stripes as I did it in the first profile that caused the fuss.  I've not seen one yet, just 1st SF birds.  Every photo I've posted of combat flown 364th birds from the same time frame has the lower stripes. 

If for no other reason than the photo evidence shows an overwhelming number painted with the lower stripes, I'd go lower as should the 364th go again in a scenario, I'd like to have it look the part.

[Vraciu]

Show me an operational 364th flown bird with the stripes as I did it in the first profile that caused the fuss.  I've not seen one yet, just 1st SF birds.  Every photo I've posted of combat flown 364th birds from the same time frame has the lower stripes. 

If for no other reason than the photo evidence shows an overwhelming number painted with the lower stripes, I'd go lower as should the 364th go again in a scenario, I'd like to have it look the part.

I don't entirely agree with you but since we are guessing any way...may as well go with the spirit of the unit.   Occam's Razor, too.   

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,394133.msg5229249.html#msg5229249 

[Guppy35]

Understand that the 364th got the tail end of the D-5 production as it transitioned to the 51.  Again they were flown in from the depots not hand me downs.  The B and C models were used for transition training.  Those would have been hand me downs and used as War Weary's for training.  So far I've only documented two B/Cs that were operational with the 364th.  One with a Malcom and one without.

I know you want photo proof of a 385th with those stripes.  I'll see what I can do to find one to ease your mind.

I appreciate that you made the change to the skin.  When I fly a 51D it's that skin or the one that Cactus did of the 364th that I use. 

[Guppy35]

This might ease your mind since the 1st SF birds with 5E seem to be a focus.  Note the serial number is lower than the one you are skinning, so it's an earlier D-5.  Also note the fuselage stripes.

[Guppy35]

This D-5 that you posted is a couple hundred D-5s prior to Bloody Rebel!  That may explain the difference in stripes.  Again the one I just posted is less than 100 before Bloody Rebel! and has the stripes we've been discussing. 

[Guppy35]

A later 5E coded 51 with 1st SF.  Lower stripes again.

[Guppy35]

Checking the serial number range it appears the change from the stripes halfway up to the style on Bloody Rebel! was in the 700 range about midway through.  Even 357th birds that had painted upper surfaces show the later style once it passes that serial range.  After that, regardless of which group you look at, the  replacement 51s are coming with that style of fuselage striping.