Author Topic: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag  (Read 8703 times)

Offline Puma44

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6730
Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2018, 03:47:19 PM »
Answered and then some, thanks Puma, what a great post, I could read this stuff indefinitely. 

It's interesting the trick you describe with the engine smoke, reminds me of something Mace said once about messing with the wing sweep intentionally on the F14 at merge so opponents would think they were in a far different energy state, and then mess them up accordingly.

Like to hear more sometime about your deployment in Korea with the F4, must have been interesting flying.

Yeah, the Tomcat guys were always working some kind of an angle.  Basically, the mode in fighter combat is that “if you ain’t cheatin’, you ain't tryin’”.

Reminds me of a 2v2 in the F-106 vs the Tomkitties.

And scorching the tail of the Phantom in Korea.

I’m short on time right now but, will expand on both of these later this afternoon.

 :salute

« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 05:14:51 PM by Puma44 »



All gave some, Some gave all

Offline colmbo

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2246
      • Photos
Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2018, 04:02:42 PM »
will expand on both of these later this afternoon.


In western most time zone.....tapping fingers on desk top.
Columbo

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."

Fate whispers to the warrior "You cannot withstand the storm" and the warrior whispers back "I AM THE STORM"

Offline Puma44

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6730
Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2018, 05:09:02 PM »
In western most time zone.....tapping fingers on desk top.

OK,OK, I"m back.

So, we are at Tyndall AFB for our annual "shot the nuke" Qualification Event.  Every year the F-106 had to shoot an inert Genie and get withing scoreable hit distance.  Sounds easy, eh?  Well, that's a whole other story.  We scheduled for two weeks, usually during the winter months so us norther tier boys could get warmed up and sunburned.  All the jets were usually qualified in the first week.  So, we had DACT scheduled for the second week.  This one year we had a bunch of Tomcats from Oceana as I recall.

Its going really well and all concerned were having a blast with the Kitties.  The first day we briefed FOX 1,2, and 3 simulated weapons availability but, no Phoenix for the Tomcats.  That would be cheating. Fox 1 was a radar missile, Fox 2 was a heat seeker, and Fox 3 was the gun in the F-14.  In the F-106, Fox 3 was the NUKE but, they were unaware of that and we surely weren't going to tell them that.   So, the first day was a 4V4.  We launched early and set up on the opposite side of the area and had presorted the Kitty that each of us would lock on to and shoot.  When they checked into the area, we were already line abreast 4-6,000 feet apart.  "Fights on" was called and we simultaneously called FOX 3 and executed our nuke escape maneuver.  Of course the Tomcat guys thought we had lost our minds shooting the gun that far out and calling kills on all of them.  They continued running us down but, GCI  called a Knock it Off and explained that they had just been nuked.  The rest of the week it was heaters and guns only.  The Six or Iron Triangle as we called it was capable of extremely high end speed and accelerated quickly.  It could do one hard bat turn and them it was nose down and full burner to regain the speed that had just been burned off in the turn.  To say the least, getting in the phone booth with the Tomcat was a load of fun and humbling.

Later that week, I launched in two ship and my lead had a mechanical requiring immediate RTB.  So, I arrived in the airspace early as a single ship and waited for the two ship of Kitties to arrive.  The Six had a UHF Data Link receive only unit.  So, I dialed up the Tomcat discrete frequency and heard them check in with GCI.  When they came up on the common freq, I started making two sets of radio calls using my best ventriloquist voice to simulate my missing wingman.  The Tomcat guys were in a panic because they could only find one target, me.  Again, we were heaters and guns only.  So, it was going to be a phone booth fight.  I locked onto the lead, selected full AB, and went straight at him.  With a visual on both, I rolled inverted, supersonic and made a canopy to canopy pass with lead.  We then transitioned into the phone booth.  They spanked me without mercy.

Which reminds me of the Tomcat dual engine flameout, the Bomarc Missile shoot, and the Six low altitude supersonic intercept stories.  But, I'll get onto the F-4 story.  I know Columbo is waiting impatiently.  :rofl

As I mentioned earlier, the F-4E was very maneuverable in high the AOA, low speed environment.  One of the old head instructors at my squadron in Korea taught me to be ready when chasing a guy uphill in burner.  The trick was to park right behind and under his tail in full AB and be the first to crack a notch of flaps.  This would allow the chaser just enough control authority to outlast the chasee as gravity took over the high AOA/low to no airspeed indication.  By staying buried in his close deep six, he would eventual roll just a little to see where I was.  This would cause gravity to take over and him pitch straight down in max AB trying to regain speed. Since I was first with the flaps out, there was just enough control authority to rudder the nose over, point at him, and FOX 2 (heat seeker) him with a full steady growl in the headset from the seeker head on the missile.  When we RTBed and parked the crew chiefs were irritated because the tail of the jet had black soot all over the tail from doing somewhat of a tail slide and wrapping the burner plume around the tail.  They would, of course, have to do extra work and get a stand and clean their jet and make it look presentable.  I learned early on in my flying career that I was only borrowing the Crew Chief's jet, not flying my jet.

Then there was the time North Korean SAM site lit up our RHAW hear when we were playing in the ACMI area.

And the time of the near dual PC failure.

And live firing the new AIM-7 in the Phillipines.....and the AIM-9.

 :airplane: :salute
« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 05:24:57 PM by Puma44 »



All gave some, Some gave all

Offline Vraciu

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14034
Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2018, 05:15:45 PM »
Answered and then some, thanks Puma, what a great post, I could read this stuff indefinitely. 

It's interesting the trick you describe with the engine smoke, reminds me of something Mace said once about messing with the wing sweep intentionally on the F14 at merge so opponents would think they were in a far different energy state, and then mess them up accordingly.

Like to hear more sometime about your deployment in Korea with the F4, must have been interesting flying.

"Palace Cobra" by Ed Rasiums is a must-read then.

I agree, good stuff by Puma.   
”KILLER V”
Charter Member of the P-51 Mustang Skin Mafia
King of the Hill Champ, Tour 219
The Damned
King of the Hill Win Percentage - 100 (1 Win, 0 Losses)

Offline colmbo

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2246
      • Photos
Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2018, 08:40:02 PM »
I know Columbo is waiting impatiently.  :rofl

You remember I'm terminal right....no time for patience here!!  Didn't the crew chief at least get some satisfaction from you owning the F-14 guy?
Columbo

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."

Fate whispers to the warrior "You cannot withstand the storm" and the warrior whispers back "I AM THE STORM"

Offline icepac

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6807
Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2018, 10:33:14 PM »

Dad (navy) ran aggressor stuff with simulated attacks on a couple of air force bases in florida.

He said they would come in NOE and he could see the plumes of smoke from the cartridge starts as he blew past.

Offline Puma44

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6730
Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2018, 11:33:47 PM »
You remember I'm terminal right....no time for patience here!!  Didn't the crew chief at least get some satisfaction from you owning the F-14 guy?

Oh, most definitely.  He thought it was pretty funny.

So, what do you want to hear about next?



All gave some, Some gave all

Offline TequilaChaser

  • AH Training Corps - Retired
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10171
      • The Damned - founded by Ptero in 1988
Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
« Reply #37 on: September 11, 2018, 12:09:31 AM »
Quote
I learned early on in my flying career that I was only borrowing the Crew Chief's jet, not flying my jet.

I got a really good ol'laugh out of this line....

Reminds me of my time in VS-24 and the Squadron CO & XO was getting ready to go fly, I was the plane captain of his (my) S-3A Viking.....

I had signaled for him to start the APU, Engine 1, then Engine 2...going through the whole process of checking flaps, ailerons, rudder, elevators, launch bar, landing light etc.....

Then while verifying the hydraulic pressure was good/in the grey area/too low.... They were right at the very minimal limit of 2,900 psi on the gauge, in the tail hook bay......that was left up to my decision to go/no go.....so I called the flight off, refusing to launch my CO & XO, totally pee'ing both of them off

It was my call, I made it..... After that, the CO called me that cocky sob.....LOL

Keep the stories/memories flowing.....am enjoying them gratefully Puma

~S~

TC
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline colmbo

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2246
      • Photos
Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
« Reply #38 on: September 11, 2018, 12:11:22 AM »
Oh, most definitely.  He thought it was pretty funny.

So, what do you want to hear about next?

The airport where I worked got a new airport director, a retired AF Colonel who hired a bunch of retired military pilots.  F-4, F-15, C-130, F-18, Coast Guard H-3.  My productivity dropped when I could get these guys to talk.

Talk about anything you want, you lived the life I wanted to live. 

I once had to turn down a ride in an F-4 owned by the Collings Foundation.  I just didn't have the time to head back to Houston.  Oh yeah, the ride was going to be flown by Steve Ritchie if you've heard of him.  I do kind of regret saying no. :)

Columbo

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."

Fate whispers to the warrior "You cannot withstand the storm" and the warrior whispers back "I AM THE STORM"

Offline 1stpar3

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3701
Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2018, 12:19:53 AM »
"Palace Cobra" by Ed Rasiums is a must-read then.

I agree, good stuff by Puma.
Read that one..PER YOUR insistence! WAS NOT disappointed :rock :rock
"Life is short,break the rules,forgive quickly,kiss slowly,love truly,laugh uncontrollably,and never regret anything that made you smile."  “The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why.”- Mark Twain

Offline Vraciu

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14034
Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2018, 12:45:09 AM »
Read that one..PER YOUR insistence! WAS NOT disappointed :rock :rock

 :aok :salute :cheers:  "Palace Cobra" was a book I was sad to put down.   

From the Marine perspective:

Fiction - "Pettibone's Law" (one of my former instructors swears half of it was truth masquerading as fiction).
Fact - "Phantom Over Vietnam" (it's been awhile since I read it, but it will give you the Marine side of a lot of the things Puma has talked about).
« Last Edit: September 11, 2018, 12:51:41 AM by Vraciu »
”KILLER V”
Charter Member of the P-51 Mustang Skin Mafia
King of the Hill Champ, Tour 219
The Damned
King of the Hill Win Percentage - 100 (1 Win, 0 Losses)

Offline Vraciu

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14034
Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
« Reply #41 on: September 11, 2018, 12:49:34 AM »
The airport where I worked got a new airport director, a retired AF Colonel who hired a bunch of retired military pilots.  F-4, F-15, C-130, F-18, Coast Guard H-3.  My productivity dropped when I could get these guys to talk.

Talk about anything you want, you lived the life I wanted to live. 

I once had to turn down a ride in an F-4 owned by the Collings Foundation.  I just didn't have the time to head back to Houston.  Oh yeah, the ride was going to be flown by Steve Ritchie if you've heard of him.  I do kind of regret saying no. :)

My very first instructor (who was also my Freshman English teacher) when I went to the Marine Military Academy in Harlingen was a retired Marine Major (F-4s).   He had 250+ missions in Vietnam or something crazy like that.  Modest guy but he had some funny stories.

One of the best ones was how they crashed a Navy medal ceremony.   They took toilet paper rolls of all kinds and stuffed them up inside the speed brakes on a four ship of Marine Rhinos.   At about the time the big cheese was making his remarks they came roaring in, burners lit, boards out at the appropriate moment to make it rain...      Toilet paper fluttering down and covering the whole parade deck...

When he told us the story I laughed myself silly for two days.  He was and is quite the character.

He also swears that the book "Pettibone's Law" had to have been written by someone he knew in Nam because many of the stories in it are 10000000% true (as he witnessed them firsthand).

« Last Edit: September 11, 2018, 02:07:50 AM by Vraciu »
”KILLER V”
Charter Member of the P-51 Mustang Skin Mafia
King of the Hill Champ, Tour 219
The Damned
King of the Hill Win Percentage - 100 (1 Win, 0 Losses)

Offline nooby52

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 990
Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
« Reply #42 on: September 11, 2018, 08:54:53 AM »
I grew up in Birmingham, AL, across the street from the south end of the runway of the Birmingham airport, home of the Alabama ANG. For two weeks every summer I could sit in my front yard and watch the F4s taxi to "my"end of the runway, make their turn, two-by-two, straighten up, throttle forward, notch the afterburners, as they rent the evening air with their awesome roar, fire trailing as they rocketed down the runway. Then repeat as about 7 or 8 more pairs did the same thing. I remember those days with much fondness.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2018, 08:58:11 AM by nooby52 »

Flying as "South52" for VF-17 Jolly Rogers
17 Squadron - The Hardest Day Battle of Britain
204 Kokutai - Target Rabaul
610 Squadron -TFT Battle of Britain

Offline Puma44

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6730
Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
« Reply #43 on: September 11, 2018, 02:42:52 PM »
In 1985, we deployed 8 F-4Es from Moody AFB to Cairo West AB, Egypt for Bright Star Combined Force Exercise. Following weeks of work up, launch time came for the flight that took 12.6 hours of flight time and 11 air refuelings.  Armed with a myriad of maps, box lunches, and our normal flight gear, we stepped to the jets after an extensive brief.  First, checked the aircraft forms and built a nest with all the extra stuff not normally carried on a local flight.  Then, the walk around.  The jet was perfect.  Leaking just a little oil and hydraulic fluid as normal to indicate that there were fluids in the jet.  Nothing leaking was valid cause for concern and investigation. You could always tell a Rhino crew by the strip of fluid that leaked onto their back during the duck walk pre flight.  Everyone climbed up, strapped in, and brought the J79s to life.  The familiar rumble and sound as they spun up to idle was comforting on that hot and humid August night.  Lead called for checkin and everyone chirped in crisply. We then started the taxi for a south departure, followed by the two air spare jets.   They were to takeoff and follow to the first tanker hookup to ensure the eight primaries could hook up and take on fuel.

  My backseater and I were number 4 in the second four ship because I was the only pilot who hadn’t made an ocean crossing and the other pilots out ranked me.  Our takeoff was planned for a 2230 takeoff behind our two KC-10 tankers. After the first four ship cleared EOR and took the runway, we entered EOR for predeparture checks by the EOR crew chiefs.  Ours plugged in said howdy then unplugged to do his inspection.  Almost immediately, he came back up on the intercom and said we had a hydraulic leak in the left brake.  I asked if he thought it was a show stopper.  He said the DCM and surrounding O-6s would have to decide.  As we watched all the head scratching going on, the rest of our fourship was leaving EOR for the runway.  We were both frantically waving to get the crowd’s attention with no response.  When I goosed the left engine, the resulting roaring screech caused everyone to look our way.  I waved the CC over. When he answered up on the intercom, I asked what the decision was.  They were still deciding.  I told him to unplug, pull chocks, and get out of the way.  We were going back to the ramp for a ground spare.  He did so and we pivoted around to head back to the ramp as the two airspares pulled into the EOR and, of course, saluting smartly to the gang of O-6s. WE WERE NOT GOING TO MISS THIS DEPLOYMENT!  We hauled azz  down the taxiway, parked next to one of the spares and began a very expedited shutdown, preflight, start up, taxi process. 

We again hauled donut back and entered EOR as the air spares were taking the runway.  Our same crew chief popped up on intercom and said he would quick turn us. Shortly, he appeared off the left side, intercom cord in hand, and flashing a big smile and thumbs up. I gave him the pull chocks signal, he did so, and we took the runway, did the checks, and lit up the burners.  Off the runway with gear coming up, my pitter asked what we were goin to do.  He was concerned with the radar picture displayed.  Both KC-10s with four and three Rhinos in tow were in a sweeping left turn from south to northeast to begin the great circle route to Egypt.  The two air spare bastages were closing on the three ship.  My pitter asked how we were going to do this.  My answer, “watch this cutoff”.  I took a huge lead vector in front of the lead KC-10 to get maximum closure rate.  We were, of course, in full AB for most of this, until we had about 450-500 knots of energy built up.  As we closed on the gaggle, I adjusted our energy state and smartly muscled in front of the air spares who were a few thousand feet in trail of our position in for the second four ship.  They followed us until the first AR hook up and RTBed.

Then, several hours of night AR in the top of cumulonimbus nimbus clouds followed.  The rest of the story later. :salute
« Last Edit: September 11, 2018, 02:48:47 PM by Puma44 »



All gave some, Some gave all

Offline Vraciu

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14034
Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
« Reply #44 on: September 11, 2018, 07:16:20 PM »
Good stuff.

I'll throw this one in.  Shorty but goody.

Jerry Cooke wrote a book about his career which included a Vietnam tour or two in F-4s.    One story he related was a conversation he overheard between some F-105s he was escorting.

The F-105s' said something like this:

"Lead this is Four."

"Go, Four."

"Sir, I got slung wide on that last turn and I've lost the formation."  This was an inexperienced pilot and the tone in his voice was filled with apprehension.

The lead was obviously concerned.   "Do you know where you are?"

"Yes, sir."

"Well where the HELL are you?" the flight lead replied, with exasperation.

"I'm over downtown Hanoi."

"What the hell are you doing there?????" came the leader's booming query.

"A thousand miles an hour!"


 :rofl



« Last Edit: September 11, 2018, 09:11:51 PM by Vraciu »
”KILLER V”
Charter Member of the P-51 Mustang Skin Mafia
King of the Hill Champ, Tour 219
The Damned
King of the Hill Win Percentage - 100 (1 Win, 0 Losses)