Author Topic: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag  (Read 8674 times)

Offline colmbo

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Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2018, 09:27:43 AM »
we were pulling onto the airport road two dark green F-4s

For me it was a natural metal F-100 at Newton, KS around 1960 or 61.  We were driving onto the small airport where there was some kind of aviation thing going on when an F-100 crossed very low, very fast from right to left.  I remember the big buzz number on the side of the F-100.  And it was pretty obvious that none of the crowd distance regulations had been enacted back then. :)
Columbo

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Fate whispers to the warrior "You cannot withstand the storm" and the warrior whispers back "I AM THE STORM"

Offline colmbo

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Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2018, 09:29:27 AM »
I am still looking for the F-4 guy that blew my hootch down with a low pass just outside Ft. Yukon, AK.  Awesome pass dude but I put a lot of work in that hootch!
Columbo

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."

Fate whispers to the warrior "You cannot withstand the storm" and the warrior whispers back "I AM THE STORM"

Offline Puma44

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Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2018, 09:32:47 AM »
I always found it funny how the AF F4 phantoms used those ladders....where as the Navy F4 phantoms I worked on never had or required them

Still is one of my all-time favorites of the different types of jets I had the joy to work on and do high power turn quals in....


TC

We Air Force guys used the retractable steps for hanging helmet bags, harnesses, etc during the preflight walkaround.

The Rhino never failed to motivate when grunts would request a flyby during field exercises.  Of course, we would add low, fast, and full AB to the flyby.  On one occasion in Egypt, the attached AF ALO was very excited after our low two ship flyover with a shackle and pitch up in full AB with flares spitting out as we aileron rolled vertically.  He yelled over the radio that it was fantastic and the General loved it.  I asked what General? His reply, “the Corp Commander and the General wanted us to do another”.  Using discretion, I replied “negative, bingo, RTB”.

I am still looking for the F-4 guy that blew my hootch down with a low pass just outside Ft. Yukon, AK.  Awesome pass dude but I put a lot of work in that hootch!

It wasn’t me but, sounds oddly familiar.  :D. That is, just the low pass part.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2018, 10:08:52 AM by Puma44 »



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Offline Vraciu

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Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2018, 09:33:02 AM »
For me it was a natural metal F-100 at Newton, KS around 1960 or 61.  We were driving onto the small airport where there was some kind of aviation thing going on when an F-100 crossed very low, very fast from right to left.  I remember the big buzz number on the side of the F-100.  And it was pretty obvious that none of the crowd distance regulations had been enacted back then. :)

The Hun!   :aok
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2018, 09:33:35 AM »
I am still looking for the F-4 guy that blew my hootch down with a low pass just outside Ft. Yukon, AK.  Awesome pass dude but I put a lot of work in that hootch!

It was Puma.  :banana: :rofl

Edit In: Don't let him kid you.  It was him.   :rofl
« Last Edit: September 09, 2018, 09:40:07 AM by Vraciu »
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Offline colmbo

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Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2018, 12:46:40 PM »
It was Puma.  :banana: :rofl

Edit In: Don't let him kid you.  It was him.   :rofl

It was pretty awesome.  We were on this tiny hilltop, maybe 30-40 feet about surrounding terrain.  Lead bottomed out of his dive below where I was standing, looking in the intakes was impressive.  As he passed over our GP medium tent used to show movies at night he pitched up hard, afterburner, two rolls as he climbed away.  The wake flattened the GP tent with the center ridge pole destroyed the projector.  He also sucked my hootch and a couple others off the ground.  -2 came by pretty high, he was probably 50' above us.  The audio/visual guys back on Rich didn't believe the story that "a Phantom destroyed the projector". :)
Columbo

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."

Fate whispers to the warrior "You cannot withstand the storm" and the warrior whispers back "I AM THE STORM"

Offline Vraciu

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Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2018, 12:54:18 PM »
 :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :aok
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Offline Puma44

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Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2018, 04:29:58 PM »
It was pretty awesome.  We were on this tiny hilltop, maybe 30-40 feet about surrounding terrain.  Lead bottomed out of his dive below where I was standing, looking in the intakes was impressive.  As he passed over our GP medium tent used to show movies at night he pitched up hard, afterburner, two rolls as he climbed away.  The wake flattened the GP tent with the center ridge pole destroyed the projector.  He also sucked my hootch and a couple others off the ground.  -2 came by pretty high, he was probably 50' above us.  The audio/visual guys back on Rich didn't believe the story that "a Phantom destroyed the projector". :)

A nice motivation pass, all in good fun for you grunts.



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Offline colmbo

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Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2018, 04:38:42 PM »
A nice motivation pass, all in good fun for you grunts.

Says the guy that flew home, stopped by the club then perhaps a few laps in the pool before climbing into his luxury bed while the "motivated" troop tried to find his mosquito netting so that he might have some blood left in the morning.

 :devil

It was no doubt the most impressive pass I saw.
Columbo

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."

Fate whispers to the warrior "You cannot withstand the storm" and the warrior whispers back "I AM THE STORM"

Offline Puma44

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Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2018, 04:42:21 PM »
Says the guy that flew home, stopped by the club then perhaps a few laps in the pool before climbing into his luxury bed while the "motivated" troop tried to find his mosquito netting so that he might have some blood left in the morning.

 :devil

It was no doubt the most impressive pass I saw.

 :rofl. Glad one of my brethren made your day in more than one way.   We had to be well rested and refreshed to conduct such precision airshows for you guys.  Most certainly a privilege and way more fun than you can imagine.  :salute



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Offline Vraciu

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Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2018, 04:47:55 PM »
:rofl. Glad one of my brethren made your day in more than one way.   We had to be well rested and refreshed to conduct such precision airshows for you guys. Most certainly a privilege and way more fun than you can imagine.  :salute



 :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Offline Puma44

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Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2018, 05:00:55 PM »
Says the guy that flew home, stopped by the club then perhaps a few laps in the pool before climbing into his luxury bed while the "motivated" troop tried to find his mosquito netting so that he might have some blood left in the morning.

 :devil

It was no doubt the most impressive pass I saw.

Plus, I theorized that a low enough pass at high speed and full AB would warm and dry you guys who had been sleeping in the rain and mud.  No to mention erraticating a few mosquitos.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2018, 05:24:23 PM by Puma44 »



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Offline Gman

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Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2018, 09:45:09 PM »
Puma, what can you elaborate on regarding the j79 engines?  I've been re reading Mark Berent's books which go into great detail his and his character's F4 Phantom time in Vietnam, and some other books and sources I've read recently too really talk up the J79 as one of the great fighter engines of our lifetime.  Some of the RCAF pilots I've spoken to about the F104 said it was one of the few parts of the 104 that was great.

How do you compare the F4 models that flew in Vietnam vs the Mig 17, 19, and especially the 21 back then? 

Offline Puma44

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Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2018, 10:52:46 PM »
Puma, what can you elaborate on regarding the j79 engines?  I've been re reading Mark Berent's books which go into great detail his and his character's F4 Phantom time in Vietnam, and some other books and sources I've read recently too really talk up the J79 as one of the great fighter engines of our lifetime.  Some of the RCAF pilots I've spoken to about the F104 said it was one of the few parts of the 104 that was great.

How do you compare the F4 models that flew in Vietnam vs the Mig 17, 19, and especially the 21 back then? 

The first thing about the J79 is that it is an indestructible brute.  Pushing the throttles up and they both delivered instantly.  The engines could be at idle in the middle of a dogfight and deliver full AB power as fast as the pilot could push them forward to the stops.  I personally have never had one cough or hesitate, nor have I ever heard of one doing it.  It was amazing to have that range of power available without hesitation.  Early J79s had a characteristic thick smoke trail that could be easily be seen 50 miles or farther against a clear sky.  A technique used when entering an engagement would be to drill straight at an opponent and at the desired time go into min AB which pretty much eliminated the smoke trails.  At this point the Rhino pilots would action out of plane to hopefully make the opponent lose the visual.  One of the nicknames for the F-4 was “Ole Smokey”.   The joke among F-4 pilots was when an opponent was trapped at six, deselect AB and blow smoke and cinders in his eyes. In later years, the F-4s were equipped with “smokeless” J79s.  This started during my second tour.  In the midst of the conversion, it was not uncommon the see an F-4 coming up initial with a smoker and smokeless installed.  The contrast was stunning.  It appeared as the jet had one engine shutdown since the new engines where virtually smokeless.

I entered the USAF at the end of Vietnam and didn’t see combat there. When the F-4 was being developed, the powers to be decided it didn’t need an internal gun because it would be equipped with long range radar misseles that could reach out and touch someone BVR (beyond visual range).  Two problems with that theory.  One was ROE requiring VID before launch.  With the small size of the MIGs, it was difficult to get a VID before the MIG was inside the F pole for the radar missles.  A late VID would cause the Phantom pilots to maneuver for a possible IR shot.  This could be difficult to do because of the second problem.  The MIGS turned much tighter than the Phantom causing a turning fight which could prove deadly without a gun in the Phantom.  Inside the F pole for the missles left the gunless Phantoms at risk.  As a side note, we flew against Egyptian Fishbeds one day and simply could not see them in the hazy Egyptian sky.  When GCI called them 2 miles at six, we stroked the J79s and extended away from the Migs.  With short fuel range, they broke off.  The old head Vietnam Vets I trained with always said to not get in the phone booth with a MIG but, to shoot them in the lips with the Sparrow, then the Sidewinder, then a snap shot with the gun and blow through while maintaining high speed.  Of course there always exceptions to the rule and some Rhino drivers were able to defy the odds and get MIG kills.

To help alleviate these problems, the F-4E was developed with an internal 20mm Vulcan cannon with a firing rate of 6,000 rounds per minute and leading edge slats.  Phantom pilots planned on three 2 second bursts before expending the available internal gun load.  We routinely strafed practice ground targets and airborne towed targets.  The gun was my favorite.  The growl and vibration in the nose and rudder pedals was exhilarating.  Pretty much worth a woody every time.

The leading edge slats allowed Phantom pilots to do high AOA rolling maneuvers with the ailerons in addition to the rudder.  In previous hard wing Phantoms, pilots had to do high AOA rolling maneuvers with rudder alone.  Use of aileron would cause the jet to depart and enter Mr Toad’s Wild Ride.  So, the E model had much improved maneuvering performance.  (Reminds me of a story for later about a flight examiner’s High AOA demo turned into an out of control recovery).

The E model was an amazing jet.  My first assignment in it was in an air to air squadron in the ROK.  After gaining proficiency, it was common to get in the phone booth in the vertical ending up with no airspeed indication and be in complete control of the jet beyond the edge of the envelope.

So many memories and great stories......... :salute

Hope I’ve answered your questions.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 12:12:10 AM by Puma44 »



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Offline Gman

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Re: F-4E Beatin’ Feet at Maple Flag
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2018, 03:24:01 PM »
Answered and then some, thanks Puma, what a great post, I could read this stuff indefinitely. 

It's interesting the trick you describe with the engine smoke, reminds me of something Mace said once about messing with the wing sweep intentionally on the F14 at merge so opponents would think they were in a far different energy state, and then mess them up accordingly.

Like to hear more sometime about your deployment in Korea with the F4, must have been interesting flying.