Alt cap - why for god sakes ?

[fd ski]

Flew a frame last night. It was fun. Other then retarded tactics that one is forced to use when alt-cap is enabled by the way of down drafts.

So you fly at 24k. If you fly any higher, wind will slow you down and push you down later. Entire fighting bores down to whoever turns first and gets below 24k while everyone else is flying as fast as they can, as close to 24k as possible. I'm not even going to get into "historical" part of it.

What is the purpose of this aberration ? It makes an entire game straight up silly.

If bombers need escort, and escort flies at 35k, then it's COs problem. They will not escort properly.
Cap for bombers is based on "word of honor" and that i can understand.
But why should i fly at 24k when my plane will outperform all opposition at 30k ?

[Spikes]

But why should i fly at 24k when my plane will outperform all opposition at 30k ?

I think you just answered your own question.

[fd ski]

I think you just answered your own question.

190 mafia. I knew it.

[Spikes]

190 mafia. I knew it.

I did not design this scenario but I assume it was just for balance purposes. While our planes can go up there, generally the mid-war planes struggle at those alts and fighting that high is generally not that fun. It would only take a couple minutes to be down to that ~24K alt anyway.

[waystin2]

The Axis fighters did well in Frame 3. I have flown against them in the last three frames and they have changed their tactics and the Allies owning Panteleria forces changes in game play. While I do not care for alt caps complaining about them while an event is underway is too late. Focus on frame 4.

[fd ski]

waystin2, i don't care about results of any frames. I'm a walk on, just stumbled in by chance.

I was CM back when AH started so I understand a little of scenario design.

And now when chance to attend frame 4 presents itself, I have to ask myself - do i really wanna fly circles at max speed at 24k playing tag on those going on wrong angle ? I would I rather do some ACM in main arena ?

This limitation turns entire affair into something it shouldn't be. You know best, i saw you running full speed away from a fight leaving my squadron to die last night. Poor bastards on the radio were happy "cavalry is coming". It was kinda sad. But I understand why you did that. It was a smart move. Not much to do with history, flying, ACM but in context of retarded max alt - smart.

[waystin2]

waystin2, i don't care about results of any frames. I'm a walk on, just stumbled in by chance.

I was CM back when AH started so I understand a little of scenario design.

And now when chance to attend frame 4 presents itself, I have to ask myself - do i really wanna fly circles at max speed at 24k playing tag on those going on wrong angle ? I would I rather do some ACM in main arena ?

This limitation turns entire affair into something it shouldn't be. You know best, i saw you running full speed away from a fight leaving my squadron to die last night. Poor bastards on the radio were happy "cavalry is coming". It was kinda sad. But I understand why you did that. It was a smart move. Not much to do with history, flying, ACM but in context of retarded max alt - smart.

A little friendly advice and you get nasty with unfounded accusations about my gameplay.   I will leave you to sink or swim here with you temper tantrum now.  You are on your own.  Embarrass yourself away. 

[KCDitto]

Come on

This is not real life

This is not a reenactment

THIS IS a game

A game where scenarios are designed to where both sides have a chance of winning the battle.

Balance is the main objective and tactics and strategy are in play for the team, not just one group. The first two frames I lost all 3 lives very fast. Frame 2 I was out in 40 minutes. Frame 3 I survived with out losing a life. Some days you are the bug and some days you are the windshield.

If furballin in the MA is your thing, go for it man. No one here is going to care if you spend your 16 bucks a month to fly the MA.

This is NOT the MA and I am truly sorry that you did not have fun flying with your squad of 38s.

I for one have had an AWESOME time with my group of guys in Bf109G2s trying to survive and accomplish our objectives with in the rules of the event.

Hope you fly next week, but like I wrote, if it is not your thing, it is not your thing.

Lets just try and be civil.

[fd ski]

I think you're missing a point.

I got nothing against scenarios. I designed them for AH when it started, ran some of the first ones.
I designed them back in WB, participated in S3s and such for years. Including getting up at 3am in europe just to participate.
I love scenarios and i hope they succeed.

That being said, scenarios should be designed to be fair. They should be designed to give a historical "you are there" feeling to participants. If history was too one sided, designer can add some extra "not quite realistic" planes for balance, or tweak scoring in such a way that winning despite the odds is achievable, but at the end it should be in the hand of COs and pilots to pull it off.

When I fly a historical scenario, max speed into the merge, pull into vertical just to be pushed down by the wind - it takes away entire immersion. It affects tactics of the squadrons, single pilots etc. It negates part of ACM, historical tactics and so forth. I fail to see how you don't see a problem there.

I flew last night first time in this particular event. I survived without live loss. Mostly because i refused to slow down and kept going at 24k without much turning. My squadron was wiped out 2 or 3 times over. Cause instead of flying straight lines for a pot shot, they started to engage.

As for "even odds" - i'd say it's quite opposite. It is in MA that you have a chance of evening the odds. You can take same plane as your opponent, fly B&Z to your heart delight, etc. Scenario is where you get one way mission and try to survive despite the odds, knowing that opposition will have superior planes. 

[KCDitto]

I flew last night first time in this particular event. I survived without live loss. Mostly because i refused to slow down and kept going at 24k without much turning. My squadron was wiped out 2 or 3 times over. Cause instead of flying straight lines for a pot shot, they started to engage.

Tells me all I need to know about you. Your money and time, fly the way you want. Check in during the scenario design discussion and give your input there. This event is in process and rules are in place,

Thank you for participating

 

[fd ski]

You guys are pretty high strung. Where did i postulate to remove those rules for frame 4 ?

I asked for a rationalle for this limitation. If one you've presented is all there is, fine.
I hoped it was somewhat deeper then "don't want the poor 190s to get jumped".

[Devil 505]

You guys are pretty high strung. Where did i postulate to remove those rules for frame 4 ?

I asked for a rationalle for this limitation. If one you've presented is all there is, fine.
I hoped it was somewhat deeper then "don't want the poor 190s to get jumped".

Maybe it is you who is not thinking so deep. 

[Arlo]

I've also helped design match-ups. It was always a matter of trying to please both sides enough to draw players.

It was always something.

Pacific designs couldn't have F4Us. Ever. Because the Japanese plane set players were convinced it would just be a one-sided slaughter. Not that the few events that allowed F4Us (in limited quantity) ever really proved that fear founded.

If the higher performance Japanese planes were included then it was not historically immersive and a huge turn-off.

It was a tightrope. Everyone knows you need a dedicated and motivated opfor to keep the event interesting and fun. I'm a dedicated Allied side guy but I regularly tried on Axis boots to see what I could do to keep it fun for all. It wasn't easy (probably because I often couldn't sympathize with a wide assortment of nit-picking that seemed a game, for some, all its own). I wondered where the 'Samurai spirit' was. Yes, the Americans (and their allies) did create intimidating weapons as the war progressed. Yes, the Japanese were fighting an uphill battle at that point. To me, on the occasion that I wore the rising sun, that was the immersion.

Perfect balance isn't immersion. Immersion isn't perfect balance. That's where compromise comes in. As a player, I've compromised to please the other side. Not every player seems capable of such. Alt caps and downdrafts? I've never been a fan. I've played in events that relied on that element, though (most have now, for a long time). Why? Because events without bad guys to shoot at/shoot at you are about as much fun as offline tooling about.

One of the best ideas, event-wise, has been the complete side switching after a few frames, so every player can truly see the amount of balancing involved in the design of an event.

But yeah, I, too, would like to see alt capping go away. JMOHO. 

[Brooke]

Howdy, all!

If you want the full reason and history of alt caps, here it is. 

The goal of a scenario is to base it off a historical battle such that it gives as realistic an experience as possible -- subject to it also being fun and balanced.

If a scenario player has fun in a scenario and reads a book with accounts from pilots who flew in the real battle, and thinks to himself, "Wow!  That's like the fights I got into in the scenario!" -- that's the best.

Of course some things cannot be both realistic and fun.  No one wants to spend 4 hours flying to the fight.  No one wants to be enormously outnumbered or out-classed.

There are lots of parameters in a scenario that are adjusted in our attempt to find the best mix of all of this:  what planes each side has, in what proportion, with what armament, what the objectives are, cloud setup, what part of the terrain to use, how to set up ships, what ground targets to use, how to score it, etc.

The typical altitudes of fights is of as much importance to realistic feel as where the fight takes place, against which plane types, and what the weather is like.

In Aces High, we do not have some of the real-life issues that caused real WWII aircraft to fly in particular alt ranges in particular battles.  These include pilot cold, pilot fatigue, navigation problems (as we have GPS in cockpit), windscreens that frost over, visibility issues, being unable to see targets at ground level from too high up, having layers of overcast or undercast, not knowing that you and your enemy are both launching a bunch of aircraft to fight each other at precisely X o'clock on Saturday, what the enemy's targets are, and so on.

Historically, there have often been altitude limits on bombers.  We don't want 1944 8th AF strategic bombing of Germany to consist of fleets of B-17's doing NOE runs.  We don't want B-17's up near 40k.  Few people complain about that.

Longer ago, alt caps on fighters were not as common, but were still used in Rangoon 2004 (to preclude silly altitudes compared to history), Operation Downfall 2006 (to account for jet stream), and Der Grosse Schlag 2007 (to encourage realistic fighter altitudes).

But we found in scenarios without alt limits, it often became alt warrior, with everyone trying to fly around as high as their planes would go.  Not only was it highly non-historical, we got complaints about how boring it was.

So, more and more, we started putting in ways to keep the fighter alts at more realistic levels for the battles being fought like we had been doing for a long time with bombers.  35k-ish for 8th AF over Germany.  25k-ish for Eastern Front, North Africa, etc.

The best way to implement is some downwind (but not huge).  That means you can definitely do vertical moves into it, but you just can't be flying around in it for a long time.

In summary, we have alt caps because the action with alt cap is both more realistic and more fun.

[Brooke]

I have to ask myself - do i really wanna fly circles at max speed at 24k playing tag on those going on wrong angle ?

What you are talking about isn't changed by alt caps or no alt caps.

Either way you can fly in a way so that no enemy gets you.  Alt cap -- fly at max alt and don't turn or dive.  No alt cap -- fly at max alt and don't turn or dive.

Either way, though, if you don't turn or dive, you aren't going to be shooting down any enemy fighters or bombers and so are going to be useless to your side.

All that is different with what you are talking about is that, with no alt caps, people spend way more time climbing, way more time flying way up high at near stall speed.

What I'm telling you is that we tried it both ways.  People prefer alt caps.