T34 85 time for perk upgrade

[bustr]

Just did some offline testing on a range where I can populate the end of the range with tank drones.

I set all T34\85 in the drone slots and did HVAP testing first, then some AP.

HVAP
2500 - 5
2000 - 2
1500 - 1(smoked engine), 3 more to kill.
1000 - 1

AP
2000 - 6
1000 - 1

The sloped armor defends the tank well until 1000yds. On the same range I have an 88 1.5 miles off with the closest tank drone about 2500yds, farthest about 3500yds. Takes a lot of 88 AP to kill the T34\85 becasue of that armor at long range. Same issues on a range with the 17lb at 1.5 miles.

Tested the Ju87, Il2 and HurriD.

Ju87 level shooting sub 100yd grass level will pop the T34 just like the Germans learned was the best way to use the tungsten carbide core rounds by the end of 44. The Hs 129 was famous for shooting 30mm TC cor rounds sub 100m at ground level killing even the heaviest Russian tanks.

IL2 at a 45degree angle starting from 1000yds out, firing at 600 going in, will either smoke the T34 or kill it on one pass with a 1-2sec burst. Shallower angles are next to usless.

HurriD takes a great deal of precision with a very steep angle of attack shooting the turret top or engine hatch. Also the rounds work best under 500yds making lawndarting a way of life.

The T34 is hard to kill with only attacker guns outside of very narrow parameters and many T34 drivers know this and wing shoot you for your trouble. Bombs are still the best way to get rid of them. No wonder everyone drives them in the game now.

[atlau]

True using bombs is the most effective way but not nearly as fun as using a stuka g!

[Vinkman]

A bit late but...

If all those tanks were that much the same, they would not only be used more, but they would have quite similar results battling each other.
Since the very day AH3 dropped, the T-34/85 is totally dominating the battlegrounds.

dominate how?  Meaning everyone is using it? or that it's kill ratio vs other tanks is highest?

[Lusche]

dominate how?  Meaning everyone is using it? or that it's kill ratio vs other tanks is highest?

It's both combined. A tank with high usage and high K/D at the same time could be called 'dominating the battlefield' (Of course, there is no exact threshold, it's a rather vague term)

'Kills-Deaths' can be used for a quick evaluation of the impact a machine has on the battlefield. For example, in the other thread I posted the top 'dominators' for fighjter vs fighter combat:



This is the same chart for tank vs tank combat but time not just for the top tanks, but for all of them:



In 2018, the T-34/85 had not only 45% of all tank vs tank kills, it also had a K/D of 1,43 at the same time. This is huge.

[DmonSlyr]

See rule #4

[bustr]

Don't forget the T34\85 unique sloping armor. This last week I extensively tested shooting them  2000-4000 across the pit in the screen capture below. It was all ricochet light lances off their armor and 5-9 rounds to finally blow the drones up. There is a way to get tank drones onto test terrains that respond to tank fire exactly as in the MA. It's how I'm tweaking the shape of that bowl and removing at this point 50% of the trees you see in this screen capture after testing. The amount of trees here looks sparse which I thought also. Once I started testing shooting with drones out on the slopes, that is way too many trees. You have 6 drone slots and at best I would see 2 with that many trees.


The target is 4000yds and the T34\85 armor just laughs off rounds at that range. Inside of 3500, except for the Tiger2, the rest of the stable is not too hard to put down with fewer solid hits from panthers, Tigers and the T34\85. The Firefly is probably in that group, I didn't test it. Another interesting visual I ran into, I would spawn close to the drones and drive around to find the ones I could not see from across the bowl. Between 1500-2000 I would find them and at the moment I resolved the sight picture, it was obvious a shut down tank even in trees that sparse would have blown me away. A tank sitting under or next to a tree(s) seems to be rendered more like a part of the tree due to a lack of contrast you get if a tank is sitting on open grass away from trees at 1500-2000, it gets worse past 2000. In and under trees and clutter, a tank is a sitting duck if it's in motion becasue of the obvious contrast as it's motion through the trees creates contrast. No wonder so many tank players just sit around and do nothing in their tanks. He who moves first is blown away.

I now understand why the trees and bushes in AH3 are hated so much by players when they tank fight. The T34\85 at 2000 is problematic to a one shot kill even with HVAP due to the sloping armor. Depends on the angle your round at 2000 meets the sloped armor. At 2000 the T34\85 blows through most armor other than T34\85 and the Tiger family. It's AP does a number on the rest of the tanks past 2000 well enough to compete with the Tigers. I think it's on par perk wise with the Tiger family after my recent testing.





Ultimately so I could see up to 5 tank drones I had to remove 50% of the trees on this tile type I painted the bowl with. The T34\85 will slaughter everything except for the Tiger family across this bowl.

50% of the trees are removed now augmented with random houses, barns and tiny hamlets. It takes hours to get random houses, barns and hamlets to show up inside of a 3mile diameter mixed elevation area.......thank you Waffle......

[bustr]

After all the testing I've recently performed with the T34\85 on my offline gunnery ranges and with the drones in the tank town on my new terrain. The T34\85 probably should be perked between the Tiger1 and Tiger2. In the MA for the last almost 3 years I have watched it slaughter everything forcing everyone into T34\85 just to compete. I understand why everyone drives the T34\85 almost exclusively now. Kind of puts to waste the investment in all those other tanks Waffle built for the game. Just like the CHog problem when it was first introduced unperked.

[atlau]

Yeah it should definitely be perked signficantly.more than the m4 76 or even the firefly

[FESS67]

Don't forget the T34\85 unique sloping armor. This last week I extensively tested shooting them  2000-4000 across the pit in the screen capture below. It was all ricochet light lances off their armor and 5-9 rounds to finally blow the drones up.

The target is 4000yds and the T34\85 armor just laughs off rounds at that range.

4000 yards!!!  wow.  ummm what was the effectiveness of the real ww2 tanks at that range?

From what I read the effective range of WW2 tanks, even the Tiger, was sub 2000 and in reality sub 1000, in the region of 750 to 900 yards.  I find your study lacking and I suggest more thorough testing before jumping to a conclusion.

Respectfully.

[Spikes]

I do think with those numbers it should be perked much higher, unless the intent is that it is the most used. In it's current state there really is no reason not to take it, it's the best bang for your buck.

[hitech]

What would the effect be of Less t-34s on the battlefield? Another words how would it change the fight?

[FLS]

The numbers don't lie.

They also don't have opinions on complex issues.   

[DmonSlyr]

See rule #4

[bustr]

What would the effect be of Less t-34s on the battlefield? Another words how would it change the fight?

One question to ask the community of tanker fans is how they used the tank stable in AH2 at the TT on Greebo's CraterMA. The whole stable was used, not just the T34\85 and other perk tanks. The recently added German stable of anti tank vehicles during that time period were a go to ride in that crater along with the Firefly for many.

This current bowl is modeled on the AH2 crater, a 1x1 structure in the center to hide in with 500ft higher slopes surrounding it to a 3mile diameter. As you see from my screen shots and testing with the vbrmt mini vbase object to get 6 tank drones on the ground. I had to remove 50% of all trees in that 3mile diameter area so tanks were not hidden. The goal with this tank fighting area is open vistas with varied terrain to use for concealment versus the brute force of easy mode disappereing inside of trees and clutter. The trees and clutter hiding has turned the AH3 tank combat game into a matter of who is better at shutting down and hiding versus driving and fighting. Historic European WW2 tank combat was varied from ambush hiding like is the norm now in AH3 on the eastern continent, to long open varied terrain grasslands in the east during the fight between Germany and Russia.

I was too conservative in how I opened up the tank combat terrain by removing trees on my first two terrains. My last one riftval is reasonable but, it did not inspire the use of other tanks since the T34\85 was now a competition driven reflex to choose it in the hanger. If the T34\85 was not 90% of the tanks competing on riftval, the way I designed the terrain would make the three anti tank german vehicles extremely effective due to the micro terrain and open vistas around every spawn. Their low to the ground profile would blend them into the sparse trees better than normal tanks.

Becasue I have the vested interest in three terrains for AH3 in which I was trying to give tank players enjoyable places to compete. It was obvious without Luche's graph that the T34\85 is used 90% of the time by the tanking community due to staying competitive. It dominates everything else below the Tigers from my observing tank game play becasue of my three terrains. No one notices that since all they see now are T34\85 to compete against.

[FBKampfer]

Granted my perspective on the matter is a tad out of date, but as far as I understand it, the primary factors driving the T-34/85 usage are, in conjunction with the heavy tree cover limiting typical range of engagement considerably from previous versions:

1) fast, and a quick turret traverse.

2) HVAP round is most useful at close ranges typically seen (in comparison to its total uselessness beyond 1200m in the engagements that were fairly common in previous versions)

3) loads of HVAP let it be the default if anyone's laid supplies

4) armor is very tough for non perk tanks beyond 2000m, where the terrain seem to open up a bit to extended shots. Even the L/70 and 88 L/56 need to be aimed with deliberation at that range.

5) it's cheap as hell



Basically the 800-2000m engagement window closed and blocked out much of the other tanks that excelled in that zone, such as the M4(76), Hetzer, and the generalist Panzer IV suffered across the board due to its weak armor necessitating a more opportunistic approach in slugging matches seen around spawns.


Were I to hazard a guess, reduced T-34/85 usage would be replaced by a combination of Fireflys and Panthers.

That hard punch up close sounds like it's a big factor for a lot of people. However the M4(76) will also likely see some more usage since it's turret is strong enough to shrug off poorly aimed rounds, and the rate of fire gives it a leg up at close range in the event of a miss or ricochet.