Another 737 down

[guncrasher]

But did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express?

2 days in a row I'm twice as smart as you.


semp

[Vraciu]

I am being dead A$ $ serious.

Watch this and watch it again. Really watch it and really listen to it, twice. I am so tired of y'all's petulant arrogance to current events. It makes me sick to my stomach that you mock me without truly understanding what I am telling you. I've done nothing but make rational comments and you are trolling clowns. Real justice for these crimes are coming. Youve been warned.

https://mobile.twitter.com/nickguitar1776/status/1131672493687750656

Not you.   The person quoted. 

Aren’t you trying to convince us yer smart?   

[DmonSlyr]

Not you.   The person quoted. 

Aren’t you trying to convince us yer smart?   

Missread.

No. I'm trying to convince you all to be smart. I have said nothing in this thread to contradict or correct any pilots analysis on anything. I simply posted an interesting connection about a plane crash, and then I get mocked. Its a shame. I was actually one of the first people here to post a generally accurate article about the 737s software issues. I think there are far more nefarious issues with the software. Too many crazy plane crashes with important people on them. We cannot allow this to happen anymore.

[Vraciu]

Missread.

No. I'm trying to convince you all to be smart. I have said nothing in this thread to contradict or correct any pilots analysis on anything. I simply posted an interesting connection about a plane crash, and then I get mocked. Its a shame. I was actually one of the first people here to post a generally accurate article about the 737s software issues. I think there are far more nefarious issues with the software. Too many crazy plane crashes with important people on them. We cannot allow this to happen anymore.

Important people?  As opposed to unimportant people I guess.

Oh boy.

[guncrasher]

only person that ever made an airplane crash to kill one person was pablo Escobar.

rest of your conspiracy crap. is just that, crap.


semp

[Puma44]

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-says-its-software-fix-for-the-737-max-is-ready-awaits-faa-approval/

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-says-its-software-fix-for-the-737-max-is-ready-awaits-faa-approval/

It takes a long time to dumb down an excellent aircraft so that even the most incompetent pilots can fly it with minimal chance of screwing it up.

Quite a few of the 737 procedures have already been dummied down to accommodate the lowest common denominator pilot. 

It takes a long time to dumb down an excellent aircraft so that even the most incompetent pilots can fly it with minimal chance of screwing it up.

[DaveBB]

Got factual references for your theory?

Yes.   Code One has actually taken down the article, and I've noticed that even the recovery video was removed from YouTube.  However, someone uploaded the text of the article about F-16s and deep stalls.  See if this link works for you:

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1258&start=15

Real long story short, the F-16 does not have enough pitch authority at certain angles of attack and will fall in a high angle of attack straight down at about 120knts.  The flight control computer will try to pitch the aircraft down but it won't do it.  The pilot can either completely turn off the flight control computer or hold a "Manual Pitch Override" switch to exaggerate the slight nose oscillation until it gets the nose out of this dead-zone of AoA. 

Here is a crash report of an F-16 that got into a deep stall in which the pilot did not rock the aircraft using Manual Pitch Override.  This recovery procedure is specifically referenced.  https://timemilitary.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/final-aib_report.pdf

[DaveBB]

Someone was nice enough to actually upload the issue for me!

Check out the article on deep stalls.

http://www.codeonemagazine.com/images/C1_SemperViper_1_1271449318_9999.pdf

Of note, it wasn't until the Block 10 F-16 that a manual pitch override switch was actually added to the aircraft.

[Vraciu]

Someone was nice enough to actually upload the issue for me!

Check out the article on deep stalls.

http://www.codeonemagazine.com/images/C1_SemperViper_1_1271449318_9999.pdf

Of note, it wasn't until the Block 10 F-16 that a manual pitch override switch was actually added to the aircraft.

Well, at least you’re trying to get closer to the facts now (after I corrected you for your original incorrect assertions about disabling the flight control computers).  You’re welcome. 

Here: https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,397004.msg5265847.html#msg5265847

And the post that followed, which includes video:
https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,397004.msg5265848.html#msg5265848

Video Link: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv9YC-gaNYo

Joe Bill Dryden* explained it ages ago.
https://www.codeonemagazine.com/f16_article.html?item_id=174

The only times you have direct control of the surface are (1) when the weight-on-wheels, or WOW, switch is closed (i.e., you are sitting on the ground), (2) when you have the manual pitch override, or MPO, switch on and push in the nose-down direction, or (3) when the MPO switch is on, the angle of attack is above twenty-nine degrees, and you pull in the nose-up direction. As a result of the computer determining both magnitude AND direction of surface movement, the F-16 gives you a nearly constant response from a constant input across the entire flight envelope. This is only one of the results you'll see with the electronic rate (g) command system.


This is NOT disabling the FCC/FLCC as you originally asserted.   If you were to do that you’d lose the airplane as the computer is what commands movement of the control surfaces.   Without a flight control computer the F-16 is unflyable.

—
*JBD killed himself on an acceptance flight while ejecting from an F-16C after, for reasons unknown, attempting a Split-S at very low altitude.   A cautionary tale for the most experienced pilots out there to take heed of.

[Vraciu]

Yes.   Code One has actually taken down the article, and I've noticed that even the recovery video was removed from YouTube.  However, someone uploaded the text of the article about F-16s and deep stalls.  See if this link works for you:

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1258&start=15

Real long story short, the F-16 does not have enough pitch authority at certain angles of attack and will fall in a high angle of attack straight down at about 120knts.  The flight control computer will try to pitch the aircraft down but it won't do it.  The pilot can either completely turn off the flight control computer or hold a "Manual Pitch Override" switch to exaggerate the slight nose oscillation until it gets the nose out of this dead-zone of AoA. 

Here is a crash report of an F-16 that got into a deep stall in which the pilot did not rock the aircraft using Manual Pitch Override.  This recovery procedure is specifically referenced.  https://timemilitary.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/final-aib_report.pdf

Ahem.   (Again, NOT disabling the computer.)

Here’s the real story vs. fiction from people who should know better.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv9YC-gaNYo

The F-16 is not statically stable (that is why it is so maneuverable), so as you move through different AoA, the center of rotation moves relative to the center of gravity because the amount of lift changes over various parts of the airplane. These changes prevent the elevons from pushing the nose over enough to get the airplane to pitch down. At zero pitch rate (between 50-60 deg. AoA) the aircraft will just stay in that position and drop like a rock. So trying to lower the nose with the elevons will not work. However, there is a way out if altitude is available.

Although there is no nose down moment available to overcome the situation, there still is a nose up moment according to the graphs in the flight manual. By selecting the MPO (Manual Pitch Override) switch, overriding the FBW black boxes and pulling nose up there is enough moment available to move the nose further up. Once above 60 degrees AoA (you'll have to use your senses because the AoA indicator is pegged in the upper region), some nose down moment over the elevators becomes available again, enough to increase the pitch rate nose down through the critical 50 to 60 degrees AoA range and rock your way out of a deep stall.

- Starglider

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1022225


So they are not disabling the computer.   They are overriding its limits, essentially telling HAL 9000 he’s an idiot and to get out of the way so they can move the controls in a way he thinks unwise. 

Are you listening, Airbus?

[Busher]

It takes a long time to dumb down an excellent aircraft so that even the most incompetent pilots can fly it with minimal chance of screwing it up.

Its fitting. As my career was winding down, it had become obvious that management's style and behaviour had changed dramatically from what it had been at the start. They no longer had the slightest respect for what pilots do, or can do.

[Vraciu]

Its fitting. As my career was winding down, it had become obvious that management's style and behaviour had changed dramatically from what it had been at the start. They no longer had the slightest respect for what pilots do, or can do.

Sounds like every regional in the USA.   Management couldn’t care less about its crews.

[Puma44]

Its fitting. As my career was winding down, it had become obvious that management's style and behaviour had changed dramatically from what it had been at the start. They no longer had the slightest respect for what pilots do, or can do.

That seems to be a common characteristic of airlines that start out small and cohesive.  With growth and expansion, they start losing that LUVing feeling, especially within the employee groups.  Then, upper management takes advantage of the “divide and conquer” tactic, causing internal decay.

[ACE]

Its fitting. As my career was winding down, it had become obvious that management's style and behaviour had changed dramatically from what it had been at the start. They no longer had the slightest respect for what pilots do, or can do.

Ahh that is typical across every major business. Profits over people it wins every time 

[Vraciu]

Don't bite, guys.  Whatever the troll said, don't bite.