Another 737 down

[Vraciu]

If he is John Travolta.

He'll just put himself into a self-induced electrical emergency with Boston Center--at night. 

 

[Busher]

Um, can a trained pilot "checkout a 737 for a trip around the pattern for a test flight" if he's not affiliated with the airline or squadron that owns it?

Ah no. They don't keep demonstrators on the lot. Sorry for the sarcasm.

The saddest part of this fiasco for me will be the damage to the Boeing Company. The court of public opinion has issued its verdict and no one in authority seems willing to consider any other factor that contributed to the loss of life. Now we have Flight Attendants saying they will not work on the recertified airplane and politicians saying that they would walk before they got on a 737 Max (as if one of those clowns could tell a DC3 from a 707).

Since the NTSB is tasked with conducting investigations as deeply as necessary to determine all factors contributing to aircraft accidents, especially when an American made airplane is involved, I am quite surprised that the Agency has been so silent in these cases. Their job is not to defend the Boeing Company, but getting to the truth should be everyone's goal.

[SysError]

Well, you're wrong.   The crew was not only the last line of defense to save to save the jet, they were also the ultimate cause of its demise. 

1) They failed to reduce thrust from the takeoff setting.
2) They re-engaged a malfunctioning pitch trim system in violation of the QRC/QRH.

I can't think of a properly trained, experienced crew doing BOTH of these things.  I certainly can't imagine them doing item 2.

The MCAS is just a fancy name for the Speed Trim System (STS) that's been on the 737 for DECADES.

I think that you might be missing my point.  I think that the air crew's experience was probably the least relevant factor in the crashes. (Not a non-factor)

Boeing itself has stated that a pilot needed to react correctly in four seconds.  However, Boeing's own analysis was that some pilots would take up to ten seconds to react correctly.

I do not know if that time calculation for correct reaction time assumed that pilots even knew about MCAS.  A system which Boeing actively took measures to misrepresent to regulators and ACTIVELY conceal from pilots.
 
Boeing, against the cautions of some of its own engineers and test pilots, installed an automated single point of failure flight control system that turned the 737 Max into what now some are calling Flying Coffins.


It is astonishing to realize that about three days after the first crash, when Boeing’s own engineers figured out that it was an MCAS induced crash, that no meaningful action was taken. 

And five months later ….


https://www.c-span.org/video/?465775-1/boeing-ceo-dennis-muilenburg-testifies-737-max-safety

I know that five and half hours is a lot to go through.  Here are some interesting moments:

At about the 3:26:00 mark a pilot/congressman asks Boeing questions about MCAS.  He is questioning if the STS procedures are in fact the same.  (MCAS is not just another way to spell STS.) There is something there for everyone I guess.  (It is about 5 minutes long)

At about the 1:25:00 mark Boeing provides a statement about what they currently think that they got wrong.  (My guess is that they will expand and revise these comments as time goes by)

At the start of the hearing (at about 9:15) Chairman Defazio sums up, fairly well I think, some (but not all) of the Boeing 737 issues.


I do not want this happen, but I think that commercial airplane engineering and production in the US will become much smaller in years to come.  Boeing managers and executives have turned this company into a Libertarian Scam.   I do not know if it will survive.  I wouldn’t be surprised to see Boeing investors, once they see an impact to their precious shareholder value, will demand that the commercial airplane business gets sold off.

We will all lose.

[Mister Fork]

I think that you might be missing my point.  I think that the air crew's experience was probably the least relevant factor in the crashes. (Not a non-factor)

Boeing itself has stated that a pilot needed to react correctly in four seconds.  However, Boeing's own analysis was that some pilots would take up to ten seconds to react correctly.

I do not know if that time calculation for correct reaction time assumed that pilots even knew about MCAS.  A system in which Boeing actively took measures to misrepresent regulators and ACTIVELY conceal from pilots.
 
Boeing, against the cautions of some of its own engineers and test pilots, installed an automated single point of failure flight control system that turned the 737 Max into what now some are calling Flying Coffins.


It is astonishing to realize that about three days after the first crash when Boeing’s own engineers figured out that it was an MCAS induced crash, that no meaningful action was taken. 

And five months later ….


https://www.c-span.org/video/?465775-1/boeing-ceo-dennis-muilenburg-testifies-737-max-safety

I know that five and a half hours is a lot to go through.  Here are some interesting moments:

At about the 3:26:00 mark a pilot/congressman asks Boeing questions about MCAS.  He is questioning if the STS procedures are in fact the same.  (MCAS is not just another way to spell STS.) There is something there for everyone I guess.  (It is about 5 minutes long)

At about the 1:25:00 mark Boeing provides a statement about what they currently think that they got wrong.  (My guess is that they will expand and revise these comments as time goes by)

At the start of the hearing (at about 9:15) Chairman Defazio sums up, fairly well I think, some (but not all) of the Boeing 737 issues.


I do not want this to happen, but I think that commercial airplane engineering and production in the US will become much smaller in years to come.  Boeing managers and executives have turned this company into a Libertarian Scam.   I do not know if it will survive.  I wouldn’t be surprised to see Boeing investors, once they see an impact to their precious shareholder value, will demand that the commercial airplane business gets sold off.

We will all lose.

It's a valid perspective, and you're missing our main argument.

My buddy, who flies the 737-800, mentioned that there are three similar trim systems on the 7 and that the MCAS was meant to help it be even more 'stupid pilot proof.'  When you have pilots flying a complicated bird, and one of the trim systems malfunctions and you're so inept, inexperienced and undertrained as a pilot, you're going to crash the aircraft.

[Vraciu]

I think that you might be missing my point.  I think that the air crew's experience was probably the least relevant factor in the crashes. (Not a non-factor)

Boeing itself has stated that a pilot needed to react correctly in four seconds.  However, Boeing's own analysis was that some pilots would take up to ten seconds to react correctly.

I do not know if that time calculation for correct reaction time assumed that pilots even knew about MCAS.  A system which Boeing actively took measures to misrepresent to regulators and ACTIVELY conceal from pilots.
 
Boeing, against the cautions of some of its own engineers and test pilots, installed an automated single point of failure flight control system that turned the 737 Max into what now some are calling Flying Coffins.


It is astonishing to realize that about three days after the first crash, when Boeing’s own engineers figured out that it was an MCAS induced crash, that no meaningful action was taken. 

And five months later ….


https://www.c-span.org/video/?465775-1/boeing-ceo-dennis-muilenburg-testifies-737-max-safety

I know that five and half hours is a lot to go through.  Here are some interesting moments:

At about the 3:26:00 mark a pilot/congressman asks Boeing questions about MCAS.  He is questioning if the STS procedures are in fact the same.  (MCAS is not just another way to spell STS.) There is something there for everyone I guess.  (It is about 5 minutes long)

At about the 1:25:00 mark Boeing provides a statement about what they currently think that they got wrong.  (My guess is that they will expand and revise these comments as time goes by)

At the start of the hearing (at about 9:15) Chairman Defazio sums up, fairly well I think, some (but not all) of the Boeing 737 issues.


I do not want this happen, but I think that commercial airplane engineering and production in the US will become much smaller in years to come.  Boeing managers and executives have turned this company into a Libertarian Scam.   I do not know if it will survive.  I wouldn’t be surprised to see Boeing investors, once they see an impact to their precious shareholder value, will demand that the commercial airplane business gets sold off.

We will all lose.

Boeing is falling on its sword.   

The plane crashed because the crew flew it into the ground.   Period.  End of story.   

When they retracted the flaps the problem started.   Undoing that action would have stopped the problem.   Strike one.

They had the system deactivated but never came out of takeoff power which exacerbated the nose down out of trim condition.   Strike two. 

Being ignorant of the unload-trim-unload-trim procedure AND remaining at takeoff thrust they then reactivated the system that was misbehaving in the first place.    Strike three.

The lack of experience and training they had was the ultimate problem.    No system, and I mean NO system, can protect against a pilot who lacks skill, knowledge, and respect for proper procedures. 

I'm not even typed in the airplane and I know this stuff. 

And yes, the STS is just a poor man's MCAS (the MCAS is just a fancier Speed Trim System).    They do nearly the exact same thing and when either of them runs away you handle it like any other uncommanded trim movement.

[Busher]

"I think that you might be missing my point.  I think that the air crew's experience was probably the least relevant factor in the crashes. (Not a non-factor)

Boeing itself has stated that a pilot needed to react correctly in four seconds.  However, Boeing's own analysis was that some pilots would take up to ten seconds to react correctly."

Since you are not a professional pilot, I am surprised by the first line of your comment. I could expand but I think you would concede there is no substitute for experience in the cockpit.

To the second line, I am certain the statement was not made by a qualified pilot from Boeing's Flight Operations Division. I know that all of my fellow professionals in this discussion will agree; Four seconds in a jet is an eternity. When the automation or any element of it (MCAS, Yaw Damper, Stab trim, ADCs etc) burp (and they all burp), an experienced qualified pilot takes control, disables the automation and flies the airplane to a safe and stable speed and attitude.

As to your comments that suggest the demise of North American made airliners, I do not disagree and it saddens me - I am not a fan of the French Airbus approach that pilots are only there to feed the dog.

[Vraciu]

Airbus will never be as good as EMBRAER.    I'll hope the latter learns to scale its jets to compete against the dreaded Borg.

[Puma44]

"I think that you might be missing my point.  I think that the air crew's experience was probably the least relevant factor in the crashes. (Not a non-factor)

Here’s the relatively simple RUNAWAY STABILIZER Non Normal from the Boeing 737 checklist that should have been followed and would have highly likely saved both Max 8s. This checklist item is common in each and every 737 QRH.

Note the first step is a Private Pilot 101 “Maintain aircraft control and fly the airplane” step, very basic.

Pilots, FLYING THE JET instead of being along for the ride could have saved both of these jets, in my opinion. If I remember correctly, it was the Indonesian jet that had this malfunction a day or so before the fatal crash.  The difference being, there was an experienced pilot on the cockpit jumpseat who prompted the crew to do the correct checklist. They obviously landed safely.

You are correct about Boeing hiding the MCAS addition to the Max 8.  They deserve a bloody nose over that intentional miss step.

Boeing makes a great airplane that is safe.  They royally screwed the pooch by hiding the MCAS.

[Vraciu]

"I think that you might be missing my point.  I think that the air crew's experience was probably the least relevant factor in the crashes. (Not a non-factor)

Here’s the relatively simple RUNAWAY STABILIZER Non Normal from the Boeing 737 checklist that should have been followed and would have highly likely saved both Max 8s. This checklist item is common in each and every 737 QRH.

Note the first step is a Private Pilot 101 “Maintain aircraft control and fly the airplane” step, very basic.

Pilots, FLYING THE JET instead of being along for the ride could have saved both of these jets, in my opinion. If I remember correctly, it was the Indonesian jet that had this malfunction a day or so before the fatal crash.  The difference being, there was an experienced pilot on the cockpit jumpseat who prompted the crew to do the correct checklist. They obviously landed safely.

You are correct about Boeing hiding the MCAS addition to the Max 8.  They deserve a bloody nose over that intentional miss step.

Boeing makes a great airplane that is safe.  They royally screwed the pooch by hiding the MCAS.

1) I won't go so far as to say they hid it.    The procedure to fix the issue is the same.

2) Is this Boeing's fault or the industry's?  People are not being taught how to "build the jet" any more.   This may have been overkill but we have gone completely in the other direction now.     Knowing how to do more than just recognize "that's in the red" has given me incredible SA in the Jungle Jet and Falcon.

[ACE]

I think that you might be missing my point.  I think that the air crew's experience was probably the least relevant factor in the crashes. (Not a non-factor)

Boeing itself has stated that a pilot needed to react correctly in four seconds.  However, Boeing's own analysis was that some pilots would take up to ten seconds to react correctly.

I do not know if that time calculation for correct reaction time assumed that pilots even knew about MCAS.  A system which Boeing actively took measures to misrepresent to regulators and ACTIVELY conceal from pilots.
 
Boeing, against the cautions of some of its own engineers and test pilots, installed an automated single point of failure flight control system that turned the 737 Max into what now some are calling Flying Coffins.


It is astonishing to realize that about three days after the first crash, when Boeing’s own engineers figured out that it was an MCAS induced crash, that no meaningful action was taken. 

And five months later ….


https://www.c-span.org/video/?465775-1/boeing-ceo-dennis-muilenburg-testifies-737-max-safety

I know that five and half hours is a lot to go through.  Here are some interesting moments:

At about the 3:26:00 mark a pilot/congressman asks Boeing questions about MCAS.  He is questioning if the STS procedures are in fact the same.  (MCAS is not just another way to spell STS.) There is something there for everyone I guess.  (It is about 5 minutes long)

At about the 1:25:00 mark Boeing provides a statement about what they currently think that they got wrong.  (My guess is that they will expand and revise these comments as time goes by)

At the start of the hearing (at about 9:15) Chairman Defazio sums up, fairly well I think, some (but not all) of the Boeing 737 issues.


I do not want this happen, but I think that commercial airplane engineering and production in the US will become much smaller in years to come.  Boeing managers and executives have turned this company into a Libertarian Scam.   I do not know if it will survive.  I wouldn’t be surprised to see Boeing investors, once they see an impact to their precious shareholder value, will demand that the commercial airplane business gets sold off.

We will all lose.

Well said.

[Vraciu]

1) I won't go so far as to say they hid it.    The procedure to fix the issue is the same.

2) Is this Boeing's fault or the industry's?  People are not being taught how to "build the jet" any more.   This may have been overkill but we have gone completely in the other direction now.     Knowing how to do more than just recognize "that's in the red" has given me incredible SA in the Jungle Jet and Falcon.

2017

http://www.b737.org.uk/images/mcas-mtm.jpg

[SysError]

[/b]Since you are not a professional pilot, I am surprised by the first line of your comment. I could expand but I think you would concede there is no substitute for experience in the cockpit.

In one a sense I take your point, however, I hasten to point out that given my background that I would have had a better chance of actually landing a job at Boeing working on MCAS than you - an experienced and expensive pilot.

In another sense I disagree with you.  I am not making a finding fact, just expressing an opinion and identifying it as such.

To the second line, I am certain the statement was not made by a qualified pilot from Boeing's Flight Operations Division. I know that all of my fellow professionals in this discussion will agree; Four seconds in a jet is an eternity. When the automation or any element of it (MCAS, Yaw Damper, Stab trim, ADCs etc) burp (and they all burp), an experienced qualified pilot takes control, disables the automation and flies the airplane to a safe and stable speed and attitude.

The issue of how long the expected reaction time should have been came from Boeing.  I do not know who Boeing came up with it.  One reference to this can be found at the 10:10 mark.  (it comes up few times)

https://www.c-span.org/video/?465775-1/boeing-ceo-dennis-muilenburg-testifies-737-max-safety

[Vraciu]

In one a sense I take your point, however, I hasten to point out that given my background that I would have had a better chance of actually landing a job at Boeing working on MCAS than you - an experienced and expensive pilot.

Which is why it is dangerous for people who are not end users to be designing these things.   Air France 447 proved that quite well.

As for expensive pilots, the cheap ones at Lion Air did a bang up job, didn't they?

The issue of how long the expected reaction time should have been came from Boeing.  I do not know who Boeing came up with it.  One reference to this can be found at the 10:10 mark.  (it comes up few times)

https://www.c-span.org/video/?465775-1/boeing-ceo-dennis-muilenburg-testifies-737-max-safety

It's a nonsense number.  No stab trim system moves THAT fast.

[SysError]

Pilots, FLYING THE JET instead of being along for the ride could have saved both of these jets, in my opinion. If I remember correctly, it was the Indonesian jet that had this malfunction a day or so before the fatal crash.  The difference being, there was an experienced pilot on the cockpit jumpseat who prompted the crew to do the correct checklist. They obviously landed safely.

Given what I heard, I imagine that they landed with soiled underwear.

From what I understand, the crew of the doomed flight were not briefed on what had happened the day before.  If so, a clear failure.

[davidpt40]

Now about 50 737NGs have been grounded for cracks.  Which isn't really as bad as it sound, most aircraft have minor cracking to a limited extent.