Another 737 down

[guncrasher]

the first car I bought was a 1977 mustang.  it was fast.  I mean you would tap on the gas and the wheels would spin.  anyway few days after I bought it, i was on the freeway on ramp, i noticed 2 big rigs coming over, I knew I could go faster and safely merge.  so I did, now I stepped on the gas I moved left and the trucks were at a safe distance behind me.  but I had a problem the accelerator got stuck so the throttle was wide open, the car just kept going faster and faster, i stepped hard on the gas pedal trying to get it unstuck.  didnt work, next option I could think of was put it in neutral. so i coasted with the throttle stuck at full gas it was noisy, i safely pulled over on the shoulder, open the hood and  was able to release the level for the throttle that got stuck.

now think about a few years back when some japanese company had problems with cars accelerating out of control.  they say it was the car floor mats or a problem with software or whatever i dont really remember and for this it doesnt matter.  there was a problem that would happen rarely but it did happen.

now a few people got killed including a police officer that had 2 or 3 other passengers in the car.  he was at 100 mph trying to control the car while a passenger was talking to 911 operator.  a few other cars had burned their breaks all the way to the metal because they kept breaking while the car was at full speed.

now if you know how to drive this is basic, and I mean basic knowledge.  you will burn the breaks if you step on them while stepping on full gas at the same time.  you cant stop car like that.  you put it in neutral and let the car rev up as much as it wants but the breaks now will safely slow it down.

so who's fault was it for all those crashes, the drivers who didnt follow basic rules or the whatever made the cars accelerate out of control or combination of both.  I think it was a combination of both.

i know, you already mentioned the crews that crashes failed to follow basic rules of flight. lots of really experienced pilots here with billions of hours in simulations and trainers who I really believe are really good in their field. even a guy who said his father trained way above what is required and I believe that.  I trust all your knowledge in this field as I have none.

but you still cant tell what happened in the pilots head when they first thought "oh toejam, something is wrong".  you were not there.  you blame the pilots for compounding the errors and that is true, they did agravated a situation,  just like the car drivers made the situation worst, they should have just put the car in neutral, stop, turn off the engine and call a tow truck.  people died.  but it's not just the pilots/drivers errors, something else happened.  and all the errors started after that first "oh toejam something happened".

anyway I am gonna have a beer and have a good thought for all the people that died in those planes and all the people that died in those car crashes. 


semp

[ACE]

3 commercial planes screwing up on the runway in less than 2 weeks. Unbelievable.

It’s probably purely 100% the pilots fault. Airplanes never have anything wrong with them.

[saggs]

It’s probably purely 100% the pilots fault. Airplanes never have anything wrong with them.

It's not a binary choice of aircraft v pilot when assigning fault.  In this incident like all aviation accidents there is a whole accident chain.

The first link seems to be Boeing's design decisions, then a sensor/software fault, then the failure of the flight crew to take proper corrective action.

I don't blame the pilots for the last part, I blame their operator and regulatory agency for an obvious lack of training and required experience level.

Corrective actions should happen at for each of these links.  Boeing is doing their part to correct the faults on their end, the FAA will do what it does (which only effects US carriers) We can only hope that the carriers involved do their part in improved training and experience.

You can play the blame game all day long, and that won't help anyone or save any lives. Instead each entity involved should be focused on solutions.  Boeing seems to be doing their part to fix this issue, hopefully the carriers will do the same.

Having said all that, it is the lack of training that is most alarming to me.  Because even when Boeing fix this, there will be other issues arise, because the perfect airplane that never has any faults is a unicorn.  Modern airliners are almost unbelievably complex in the many interconnected systems and safety measures. Something going wrong is for pilots is not a matter of if, but when, and aircrews must be trained to deal with it.

We have reached a level of automation in modern airliners where the planes can basically fly themselves (even autoland if a cat 3b aircraft and airfield)... so why do we still have pilots always in the seat?  Because that automation will fail somehow, at sometime and no computer can match the human brain at complex problem solving.  Therefore in my mind training is the paramount of importance.

[Busher]

Saggs, I believe everything you said is exactly on point.

But when training to achieve a valid flying credential now can rival a medical degree in cost, I have no idea where the qualified pilots the industry needs will come from. North American pilots are now starting their career in a jet aircraft with the FAA mandated minimum flight time. I am not convinced that the rest of the world is as motivated to enhance safety by tightening their standards.

[ACE]

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-altered-key-switches-in-737-max-cockpit-limiting-ability-to-shut-off-mcas/

Damn. It keeps getting worse.

[saggs]

Saggs, I believe everything you said is exactly on point.

But when training to achieve a valid flying credential now can rival a medical degree in cost, I have no idea where the qualified pilots the industry needs will come from. North American pilots are now starting their career in a jet aircraft with the FAA mandated minimum flight time. I am not convinced that the rest of the world is as motivated to enhance safety by tightening their standards.

Yes, the pilot shortage is an industry wide problem, also mechanics too.

[Vraciu]

TROLL ALERT.  It's a BS article.

Once you cutout a runaway stab trim the yoke buttons cease to function.  That's the friggin' point of the procedure!!!!!!

VIRTUALLY EVERY TRANSPORT CATEGORY JET AIRPLANE IS LIKE THIS.

"On the newer 737 MAX, according to documents reviewed by The Times, those two switches were changed to perform the same function – flipping either one of them would turn off all electric controls of the stabilizer. That means there is no longer an option to turn off automated functions – such as MCAS – without also turning off the thumb buttons the pilots would normally use to control the stabilizer."

Like, duh...   

—————

BTW, how can it be “no longer an option” when MCAS is new (and specific to the MAX)?  

This article is hogwash top to bottom.

[saggs]

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-altered-key-switches-in-737-max-cockpit-limiting-ability-to-shut-off-mcas/

Damn. It keeps getting worse.

That article highlights a training issue, and tries to make it the manufacturers fault. 

[Vraciu]

That article highlights a training issue, and tries to make it the manufactures fault. 

Agreed.

I love reading idiots talking about an industry they are clueless about.  It's downright embarrassing that these types of articles get published at all.

[saggs]

Image at the top of the Seattle Times article.



Then the article. "So the switches which are clearly labelled 'STAB TRIM' when moved to the 'CUT OUT' position, you're telling me that they 'cut out' the 'stab trim'?!?!"  "I'm shocked and outraged Boeing would do such a thing.

 

[Puma44]

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-altered-key-switches-in-737-max-cockpit-limiting-ability-to-shut-off-mcas/

Damn. It keeps getting worse.

NO! They did not!  This switch configuration has been in EVERY 737 since day one.  A complete fabrication of the facts.  In other words, a bold faced lie.

[Vraciu]

Legacy 600/650 QRH RE: PITCH TRIM RUNAWAY

NAP-13

Condition: Uncommanded pitch and trim indication changes.

EICAS Warning: AUTOPILOT FAIL may be presented.

EICAS Caution: AUTO TRIM FAIL may be presented.

QUICK DISCONNECT.......PRESS AND HOLD
     [Edit in: This is a memory item.]

NOTE: Do not change flap setting.

At Safe Altitude:

  Pitch Trim Main Sys Cutout........PUSH OUT.
     [This also disables the dual rocker trim switches on the yoke.]
  Pitch Trim Backup Sys Cutout....PUSH OUT. 
     [This also disables the dual rocker trim switches on the pedestal.]
  Quick Disconnect Button...........RELEASE.

WARNING: DO NOT OPEN SPEED BRAKE. 

Prepare to overcome unwanted pitch change.

[It then directs you to a flow chart where you attempt to determine if either the Main or the Backup Pitch Trim is serviceable.   If not, it directs you to the PITCH TRIM INOP Procedure.]

PITCH TRIM INOPERATIVE Procedure (EAP 8-3).......ACCOMPLISH.

————

The Legacy has a backup trim that is electric with no manual override, unlike the 737 which DOES have a manual backup.   Otherwise, the procedure is the same in terms of disabling the system.

Keeping the yoke trim active when disabling the main pitch trim system during a runaway stab procedure defeats the entire effort and purpose of disabling said system in the first place.

[Vraciu]

Falcon 900EX QRH Tab 35: Horizontal Stabilizer Trim Runaway

Audio warning: continuous clacker.
EID: possible amber PITCH MISTRIM flashing.

- Firmly hold the control column.
- Actuate the TAILPLANE EMERG switch to trim the airplane.
   [Edit In: This disables the Main Trim system which is operated by the dual
        rocker switches on the yoke.   The rocker switches will not function.]

[Vraciu]

NO! They did not!  This switch configuration has been in EVERY 737 since day one.  A complete fabrication of the facts.  In other words, a bold faced lie.

This. 

[Busher]

(Image removed from quote.)

Image at the top of the Seattle Times article.



Then the article. "So the switches which are clearly labelled 'STAB TRIM' when moved to the 'CUT OUT' position, you're telling me that they 'cut out' the 'stab trim'?!?!"  "I'm shocked and outraged Boeing would do such a thing.

 

No Saggs, those switches when moved to "cut out" disable the electric trim switches on the Captain's and First Officer's control columns. The stab can still be trimmed manually with trim wheels adjacent to both pilots' knees. Had the Ethiopian pilots managed their speed appropriately (they never reduced thrust below a takeoff setting), they could have far more easily hand flown the airplane to a safe landing using manual trim.