Another 737 down

[guncrasher]

I'm not questioning the expertise of any pilot here.  like I said I know nothing about airplanes.

but what I wonder about is the reasoning that pilots are to blame only.  pilots didn't just start pushing levers and buttons and whatever.

something was different with the airplane they tried to fix it, they didn't, airplanes crashed.  blaming only the pilots who didn't fix the problem with the airplane is wrong.

semp

[Busher]

I'm not questioning the expertise of any pilot here.  like I said I know nothing about airplanes.

but what I wonder about is the reasoning that pilots are to blame only.  pilots didn't just start pushing levers and buttons and whatever.

something was different with the airplane they tried to fix it, they didn't, airplanes crashed.  blaming only the pilots who didn't fix the problem with the airplane is wrong.

semp

Semp, I understand your point completely. The "blame" is not totally with the pilots. The malfeasance exists in allowing inexperienced or poorly trained airmen to occupy an airline flightdeck. Responsibility also has to be assigned to the airline's management and the overseeing regulatory authority.

[Toad]

How many AOA malfunctions on takeoff have you dealt with in a Class D simulator?

That would be none, right? By your own admission.

Both the Lion Air and Ethiopian accidents were AOA malfunctions. It's an abnormal, not even an emergency. It could and should be easily handled by pilots that (you may have read this here before) FLY THE JET.

The evidence of the first Lion Air Max with the jump seater that knew what to do should really drop the scales from your eyes. It apparently has not done so.

Saying that well...the SECOND Lion Air crew didn't know what to do is simply saying they were not properly trained and experienced because what you do for an AOA malfunction is essentially the same in all aircraft. Know your pitch, know your power. Or (you may have read this here before) Pitch + Power = Performance.

[Toad]

Semp, I understand your point completely. The "blame" is not totally with the pilots. The malfeasance exists in allowing inexperienced or poorly trained airmen to occupy an airline flightdeck. Responsibility also has to be assigned to the airline's management and the overseeing regulatory authority.

Simple truth.

[Shuffler]

I now know that ace takes his car to the grocery store when it has a mechanical problem.

[Vraciu]

Simple truth.

Absolutely.

[FLS]

People in these threads tend argue from authority and it’s always a bad take or a jab at the pilots. ...

Nonsense. There are people here arguing from experience. Actual experience is relevant knowledge and is completely different than the fallacy of arguing from authority.

Your ad hominem attacks are, of course, fallacious and not a counter argument.

Remind me why we can't blame the pilots inadequate response to an ordinary emergency?

[Shuffler]

Nonsense. There are people here arguing from experience. Actual experience is relevant knowledge and is completely different than the fallacy of arguing from authority.

Your ad hominem attacks are, of course, fallacious and not a counter argument.

Remind me why we can't blame the pilots inadequate response to an ordinary emergency?

Ace is exactly what he is describing.

[eagl]

I have no idea why Boeing decided to get AIRBUSSY and install a stall intervention system. Pilots have been trained for a 100 years... He who stalleth..falleth.

MCAS is there because the MAX has a pitch-up tendency in the stall when you add power to recover.  Most aircraft that have this stall characteristic end up with a full-up stick PUSHER, and this is actually not an uncommon stall characteristic.  New aircraft that behave poorly in the stall simply have fly-by-wire features that make it so it doesn't happen.  Older designs like the 737 either need a stick pusher or an automatic stab trim function.  Just like when most planes lower flaps they get a pitching moment which is automatically adjusted for by a pitch trim compensator.  The difference here is that the pitch up moment in the stall is "new" for the MAX due to the changed aerodynamics with the larger motors, and unfortunately the FAA was transitioning to a more advisory role (yay FAA cuts!) at the time the MAX got certified, so the MCAS probably didn't get the oversight it needed. 

As originally delivered, MCAS worked and when it went stupid there was a checklist that would fix it.  As modified, it will be significantly less likely to go stupid.

[bustr]

Was there enough observable before the two flights for the pilots to have known they might be flying doomed birds? If not, post accident it has been found the management in both cases were not as rigorous as US cargo carrier management in their maintenance and pilot training. That means the two governments and air carrier companies are at fault. The pilots have to be at fault for allowing themselves to be part of such screwed up situations that eventually caused so many fatalities. Otherwise now we are letting them off the hook because of professional ignorance and saying they are victims and not the commanders of the craft they screwed up in their duty to be able to fly.

ACE is blaming Boeing while guncrasher's argument is not much better. Like gun banners blame guns and their manufactures for pulling their own trigger slaughtering everyone in some theater, while the killer is annotated a victim of society and not culpable. Pilots of 140,000lb death traps are not victims and better damned well strive to be as close to superhuman as possible. And held to much higher standards than most other humans on this planet becasue every flight they make they are potential killers of such large numbers of human beings in moments.

If you want to be the captain and crew of a 140,000lb flying death trap who's ever brand of death trap you are flying. You have a moral responsibility to all the innocent victims who will place their trust in your professional abilities to always be more than just some poorly trained monkey holding the stick while a computer decides life and death. Including knowing all the idiosyncrasies of your current death trap that can potentially kill you. ACE and guncrasher are trying to make excuses for crews that failed that moral responsibility. Pilots don't get to have bad days or fall back on excuses that they weren't trained properly. My old man who did it all out of his own pocket got his own arse trained up to the level of commercial cargo and people carrier and teacher. Those pilots and crew failed their moral responsibility long before they made their last flight by going along with failed systems of management and government.

[Busher]

MCAS is there because the MAX has a pitch-up tendency in the stall when you add power to recover.  Most aircraft that have this stall characteristic end up with a full-up stick PUSHER, and this is actually not an uncommon stall characteristic.  New aircraft that behave poorly in the stall simply have fly-by-wire features that make it so it doesn't happen.  Older designs like the 737 either need a stick pusher or an automatic stab trim function.  Just like when most planes lower flaps they get a pitching moment which is automatically adjusted for by a pitch trim compensator.  The difference here is that the pitch up moment in the stall is "new" for the MAX due to the changed aerodynamics with the larger motors, and unfortunately the FAA was transitioning to a more advisory role (yay FAA cuts!) at the time the MAX got certified, so the MCAS probably didn't get the oversight it needed. 

As originally delivered, MCAS worked and when it went stupid there was a checklist that would fix it.  As modified, it will be significantly less likely to go stupid.

Thank you Eagl. I have no time in the 737 so this was enlightening.

[Busher]

Was there enough observable before the two flights for the pilots to have known they might be flying doomed birds? If not, post accident it has been found the management in both cases were not as rigorous as US cargo carrier management in their maintenance and pilot training. That means the two governments and air carrier companies are at fault. The pilots have to be at fault for allowing themselves to be part of such screwed up situations that eventually caused so many fatalities. Otherwise now we are letting them off the hook because of professional ignorance and saying they are victims and not the commanders of the craft they screwed up in their duty to be able to fly.

ACE is blaming Boeing while guncrasher's argument is not much better. Like gun banners blame guns and their manufactures for pulling their own trigger slaughtering everyone in some theater, while the killer is annotated a victim of society and not culpable. Pilots of 140,000lb death traps are not victims and better damned well strive to be as close to superhuman as possible. And held to much higher standards than most other humans on this planet becasue every flight they make they are potential killers of such large numbers of human beings in moments.

If you want to be the captain and crew of a 140,000lb flying death trap who's ever brand of death trap you are flying. You have a moral responsibility to all the innocent victims who will place their trust in your professional abilities to always be more than just some poorly trained monkey holding the stick while a computer decides life and death. Including knowing all the idiosyncrasies of your current death trap that can potentially kill you. ACE and guncrasher are trying to make excuses for crews that failed that moral responsibility. Pilots don't get to have bad days or fall back on excuses that they weren't trained properly. My old man who did it all out of his own pocket got his own arse trained up to the level of commercial cargo and people carrier and teacher. Those pilots and crew failed their moral responsibility long before they made their last flight by going along with failed systems of management and government.

Bustr; I support your position of moral and professional responsibility completely; and I am sure my fellow airman including Toad, Vraciu, Eagl, Puma (I hope I did not forget anyone) do as well.

But sadly self-evaluation is not human nature. While the vast majority of airmen I flew with or trained always seemed to seek knowledge and training that would make them better pilots, there were those that seemed to believe they were God's gift to aviation. More often than not, the latter group wasn't particularly impressive. I tend to think the desire to always learn and improve might be cultural and it is certainly encouraged among western pilots. Whether that same motivation exists in other cultures, I cannot comment.

[ACE]

Ace is exactly what he is describing.

I wonder if you just post to up your post count sometimes lol. I’ll wait for your childish remark to this.

[Shuffler]

I wonder if you just post to up your post count sometimes lol. I’ll wait for your childish remark to this.

Have someone explain it to you.

[DmonSlyr]

3 commercial planes screwing up on the runway in less than 2 weeks. Unbelievable.