Author Topic: Head Ons...What's The Problem? (Read 531 times)

Andy Bush · « **on:** May 22, 2000, 02:46:00 PM »

Hi folks...

OK...I'm a newbie! Sometimes I ask dumb questions!

I ran across this quotation...

"Head-ons are for pilots that don't know what their next move should be"

I've also noticed a certain disdain for this type of attack in other posts. I don't understand why.

Has this got something to do with the way AH AI is programmed? Does this type of attack give a disproportionate advantage to the shooter for some reason?

Or is this just someone's opinion about how a gun attack should be flown...as in 'Real men don't fly head on attacks', or something like that?

I'm just kinda curious. In the real world, there are some excellent reasons for going beak to beak with the bandit, and it has nothing to do with self-image or ego.

Andy

Ripsnort · « **Reply #1 on:** May 22, 2000, 02:53:00 PM »

(Ripsnort pulls up a K-Mart, white, plastic lawn chair, and a case of good brew, wondering if this thread gets to 100...)

I use HO tactics when I have no other options available to me. (I.E. outnumbered, slow and low, gonna take as many of you with me as I can!

)

Fatty · « **Reply #2 on:** May 22, 2000, 02:54:00 PM »

I use headon when I think it's going to make the other pilot angry. Otherwise I'll try to avoid it, it isn't worth dying for if it doesn't cause some frustration.

(that stoked it enough for you Rip?)
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Fatty
Fat Drunk Bastards
"A country without beer has already lost the war. We must, gentlemen, take field 37 at all costs."

[This message has been edited by Fatty (edited 05-22-2000).]

Badger · « **Reply #3 on:** May 22, 2000, 03:09:00 PM »

In the last few days of my MA experiences, I really lost it. I was HO'ing anything moving, shooting chutes, diving to blast already burning aircraft and killing defenseless sheep on landing and take-off, with complete disregard for my own personal safety.

It was fortunate that "killshooter" was ON.........

In pseudo HA mode and scenarios, I fly to maximize the effort and minimize the cost. I try to return alive and bring the equipment home. I'm not good enough to HO with impunity, so I avoid those unless given no option by my opponent.

Regards,
Badger

[This message has been edited by Badger (edited 05-22-2000).]

Hangtime · « **Reply #4 on:** May 22, 2000, 03:11:00 PM »

Can you say "ohcrapitsacannonhawgHO'inme!"

Three times?... well don't bother. Before yah could finish the first one yer minus wings; tails, sayin prayers and lookin fer the canopy release. HO'in folks is dumb as hell; (particulary if the other guy has cannons) and if yah do; yer likely to get a dose of 'old facefull' yerself; followed up by crummy food and red cross packages fer the duration..

Can u say "DUCK!" ??

Do it and live.

Hang

Citabria · « **Reply #5 on:** May 22, 2000, 03:13:00 PM »

I avoid head ons more because of netlag than anything else

no matter how far out you kill the enemy Head on if his aim is ok you will die even if his shot comes a sec later.

that and I always find that most HO's end up w both planes damaged.

Mighty1 · « **Reply #6 on:** May 22, 2000, 03:14:00 PM »

I use HO when I'm in the uber-1c. Why not? If I'm in the 1c and not in a tank then I'm probably pissed and going after whomever pissed me off.

I use the HO when I know I'm going to die anyway and want to try and get the other guy too.

I use the HO because in the current F4u-1c the HO is it's greatest move.

I use the HO because..well...I want to.

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Mighty1
The New Baby Harp Seals
"Come try to club THIS Seal"

Ripsnort · « **Reply #7 on:** May 22, 2000, 03:17:00 PM »

Andy, here's some more threads regarding HO's and their tactics, hope you got some time, some of these threads are loooooong!

HiTech said it best about HO's in his interview: Head-ons are a very real tactic but with like planes is not a good pilot's first choice because it is just eliminates ACM skill and is a test of gunnery skill. To eliminate it causes just as many problems because its elimination creates a perfect but non-real defense to e fighting tactics.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/003123.html http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/002349.html http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/002462.html

[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 05-22-2000).]

funked · « **Reply #8 on:** May 22, 2000, 03:18:00 PM »

Yep, HO is the technique that is most dependent on net lag. I see you where you were a second ago, and you see me where I was a second ago. With 700 mph closure rate, this means things get really stupid.

Duckwing6 · « **Reply #9 on:** May 22, 2000, 03:46:00 PM »

Yes Hangtime i CAN say DUCK ! i resent that comment

HO's are dangerous but valid tactic .. don't do them if you have another choice tho.. i mean if landing your kills mean anything for ya... all too often both contrahends are flaming wrecks after them ..

Anyhow .. i'll HO anybody when no other options given (i fly D-Hogs) e.g. low E low Alt..

Andy Bush · « **Reply #10 on:** May 22, 2000, 04:36:00 PM »

Thanks, guys...I see your points regarding on-line lag, and I understand the armament disparities in this sim...all good points.

But the best answer came from Vermillion where he differentiated between a planned, level HO and unplanned shots of opportunity. Very good, Verm...and exactly how it is done in real life.

I never deliberately went HO against anyone in the sense of how he described a level, nose to nose, planned attack. But I sure as heck took enough forward aspect shots when the ROE permitted. (In RL, most engagement ROE specify a max of 135 degrees crossing angle for typical close in shots. This is for safety's sake. If you think this is sporty in a WW2 sim, you ought to see it for real, in a jet, when you both are over the mach. Been there, done that, scared the toejam out of myself..more than once!)

'To HO or not to HO' is a complex subject, and not one that be explained away as poor BFM (and the term is BFM, not ACM! ACM is something entirely different.) The other posts raised valid concerns such as fuel state, numerical advantage/disadvantage, etc. Those are all good reasons to consider the HO.

But, given the fuel, time, turning room, and SA, I prefer to BFM the bandit's brains out before I kill him.

It just seems like the right thing to do!!

Andy

StSanta · « **Reply #11 on:** May 22, 2000, 11:56:00 PM »

Andy, my problem is with people who seem to be capable of nothing else BUT head ons. Look, a Spit 30k, 10k altitude on me, wonder what he'll do...A HO! How surprising!

Oh, a cannonhog d4.5. He reversing and going for the....HO! Oh, no prob I fake HO, roll sharply with a gentle pull he goes up, I make sure he is in front of my 3-6 line, although high. Guess he could just wait for the drop on my 6....no, he is HO'ing me. How unusual.

I've had LOTS of fights with Spits and other aircraft where they've started with an alt adv, lost it and the continously pointed their nose at me instead of doing some ACM to reverse the tables. It just gets annoying after a while.

And, as hrristos would say "some pilots need to learn to fear the 190 in a HO" - some people will HO anything! Granted, my 109G10 is not a great threat during HO's, unless I am wearing gondies, but a 190!

It's a valid approach during some circumstances but when used extensively or used as the primary tactic of getting a kill, I cannot help but to think "what a sheepshagger".

That's my personal opinion.

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StSanta
II/JG2

Hristo · « **Reply #12 on:** May 23, 2000, 12:24:00 AM »

It never ceases to amaze me how every dweeb and his brother have no respect for 190 in a HO.

I could go on and on how I was low and slow on the deck in quad 20mm 190, and they all swooped down to HO me. Plane types ? Spits with 3k alt on me, 205s, Nikis and surprisingly, P 51s !!

Think smarter guys, with 3k alt you can catch 190 on the deck in just about any plane in AH.

Usually they blew their E and I got away.

At times I accepted a HO we both died. It all ends with last man standing approach, so we actually never bail too

Just yesterday there was Bikekill in his Spit, some 3k alt. I was fast and diving on him. He had 2 of his Spit buddies near and I had no intention to stay there long - 1 pass and bug out. He could easily evade 400 ias diving 190. But, guess what he did ! Yes, you are right. Good old HO, developing from 2000-3000 yards. He got luckier though, after collision I hit the ground first, but there wasn't much left of his dweebfire after 4 20mm hitting it.

Think better next time.

P.S.
I wrote "DO NOT HO !!!" on my gunsight. But do not trust me

funked · « **Reply #13 on:** May 23, 2000, 12:44:00 AM »

WTG Bike!

Standing orders for PAF are that dying is permitted as long as you take a Hun with you.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-23-2000).]

bike killa · « **Reply #14 on:** May 23, 2000, 10:58:00 AM »

Quote

He got luckier though, after collision I hit the ground first

things going that way all the time

btw. maybe it wasn't smart but i'm not used to run away...(ya know Polish blood)

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bikekil
308 (Polish) Squadron RAF "City of Cracow"

....come and get it

[This message has been edited by bike killa (edited 05-23-2000).]