I cannot keep doing this if we are going to do inline responses. It’s too hard to keep up and I lose track of all the things I have to refute. Much of your info is simply wrong.
Oh, did we take our white inspection gloves off and start thumping your chest? OK.
"16 vs. 7" pre-July 07? I'll do you one better. 29 January 1944, 20th FG went 10-1-1 for the lost of zero (or one, depending on the source).
Not quite true. 29th claim of 10-0-1 reduced to 7-2-2. That said - I was pointing out that 11 VC was the Top combined Daily scores of all four operational P-38 Fighter Groups until July 7 - which I mentioned above (BTW the 19 of the total 26 score for P-38s belonged to the 55th FG led by Landers that day. The 20th had 7 and lost their top ace (7.33) James Morris to an Me 410.
As to sources, on VC's I use USAF 85 as publicly available for debates, but Olynyk and mine are exactly in line with current USAFHRC totals. For losses I use the 7000+ MACRs for ETO VIII FC. For quick Bomber losses I use Freeman's M8 WD. For quick Fighter VCs and Losses I use Kent Miller's Fighter Units and Pilots of 8th AF. Kent also sifted through MACRs but our individual assignments vary - but largely agree.
Roger Freeman's compilations of VC's and losses for VIII BC far more accurate than his fighter data - because he used the Mission Summaries which correctly included CLAIMS but the 8th AF Victory Credits Board sifted them into AWARDS.
07 July, 1944, 20FG downed 25 of the 77 LW aircraft destroyed that day, the highest of any Group.
Nope, BTW the next best day for the ETO P-38 was September 26th when the 479th scored 18 w/P-38 and 7 w/P-51 during their transition. The next best after that were the 11 score days - in 11 1/2 months of combat ops since October 15, 1943,
These seem to me to be examples of the potential for the airplane when flown by good pilots with capable leaders. (This is not to say the 20th didn’t have its hands full any way, because it did. It was taking on a formidable opponent and holding serve.)
On July 7, the 20th scored 2 Me 410a and 5 FW 190A-8 Sturms - heavily armored and 'sluggish' at high altitude - and the 8th AF top P-38 ace (Morris w/7.33) was shot down by the formidable Me 410 that he shot down. BTW, Morris was the Only P-38 pilot in ETO to shoot down four German fighters in a day.
As an aside, the top P-38 ace score in the MTO was 12 (Brezas 14thFG and Sloan 82nd FG) against combined Italian and German aircraft.
The leadership doesn’t have to TRY to screw up, it simply has to make bad decisions. This was done in spades for a long time until drop tanks were finally used to their potential and Doolittle started making changes to tactics. This is common knowledge. For someone writing a “history” book I am shocked that you seem oblivious to this. The 8th AF’s record relative to their brethren in the MTO lies directly at the feet of its leadership along with other factors that are dismissed as “excuses” rather than resolvable causes.
Ahh no - and I devoted a considerable amount of print on this topic in my new book. First, the P-38E was first modified to carry 150 and 165 gallon tanks (and pressurize them) in 1941. All succeeding production P-38s were so equipped. The P-38H that arrived in ETO in Aug/September 1943 (20th and 55th) were so equipped. Doolittle didn't assume command of 8th AF until January 1944. Doolittle issued the 'Pursue and destroy' order in mid January and it formally went into effect on January 24th. Both Schmid and Galland stated separately that this was as close to a formal 'turning point' for the LW as could be dated. At this time there was one operational P-51B Fighter Group and two P-38 FG's operational in Dec and Jan, 1944. In those two months the 354th FG destroyed 52 and the 20th/55th Combined destroyed 37. The ratio for the next month with the 357th coming on board mid month prior to Big Week was 89.5 (P-51) to 32.5 (P-38). The ratio in March with 4 P-51 Groups and 3 P-38 Groups was 251 to 26. March is the very first month when P-51 sorties equaled the P-38 sorties.
Please be specific if you have 'bad leadership' in mind? Pretty serious accusation, isn't it?
The fight against the JG I mentioned resulted in their WITHDRAWAL. (One of the German pilots said it was an absolute slaughter. They were no match for the P-38s in their 190s.) If German pilots were not lost then there would be no need to have done this—nor to ultimately put sub-100-hour noobs and bomber pilots into JGs to replace losses. [I am not limiting my discussion to the ETO, either, so your attempt to discredit me doesn’t apply.]
Hmm - don't know what your sources are but I choose Prien, Caldwell and Muller for sanity checks. On January 29 during the Frankfurt mission, JG 1 was GROUNDED due to weather. The LW lost a total of 45 fighters as follows: Jagdivision lost 30 (no Fw 190s) - 19 Me 110s and 11 Bf 109s from JG 3 and JG 27 and JG106. Jagddivision 4 lost 11- 9 Fw 190s from JG2, 5 FW 190s from II./JG 26 and one Bf 109E from JG 107. If you wish to further avoid 'discrediting' please look to page 190 of Caldwell's "Day Fighters in Defense of the Reich". I recommend it as single best compilation of LW units defending against 8th and 15th AF.
The Germans could not replace their losses with equal pilots. The Americans could.
Yep, true. That said (and you need to dig on this) the LW in defense of Germany drew on experienced units mostly by stripping the Russia and Med forces and moving them west - approximately 30 Staffeln between December and April alone - as well as re-trained bomber and transport pilots for replacement pool.
A 109 diving out of the furball is not going to “simply climb back up into the fight” but so be it. Let him. He'll just be that much closer to bingo and further out of position than where he started. The reduction in bomber loss rate to 4% from a far higher average proves it worked. The inability of the LW to do anything about it also proves it.
Say what you want. The P-38 WAS effective and anyone who says it wasn’t simply can’t do math or is driven by another agenda.
(And nobody “simply” shoots down a P-38. This isn’t an arcade game. Outnumbered 5:1 and holding, for the sake of argument, a kill ratio around parity shows you’re not an easy kill.)
The P-38 was taking on peak-level opponents. The Mustang came in as a relief pitcher with the benefit of a weakened foe, better ROE, and overwhelming numerical superiority, things the P-38 never had up to that point—if ever.
And yet you keep babbling on without sources and data for everyone to see what in hell you are talking about. Tell us when the peak level opponents disappeared' - was it like overnight on November 30th , 1943 - never to be seen again? Or what? Please cite the sources for "5:1", define 'relief pitcher' - (normally brought in when the starter can't cut it - otherwise if the batting order is weak, why change)? ROE the same for P-38 and P-51 after December 1st but I have documented disparate results favoring equal Mustang sorties in December through March - against the same competition, same odds over the same targets, with same or LESS combat experience for the P-51 pilots until the 4th converted in late February after Big Week.
Say again, what Didn't the P-38 have up 'to that point' - BTW, what is 'that point' - can you tell me which date(s) you are talking about?
As for victory totals, the Jug flew twice as many sorties. The P-51 nearly three times as many. If both didn’t ultimately outscore the P-38 then something would seem dreadfully wrong.
Vraciu - it seems that you are more 'comfortable' dealing in generalities. Between October 15th 1943 and June 5th 1944 the P-38 flew APPROXIMATELY the same sortie total as the P-51B - both were initially 1:6 (P-38 October 1943 to P-47); 2 to 8 (P-38 to P-47), 1:8 (P-51 to P-47) on December 31, 1943; 2 to 9 for P-38, 1:9 for P-51 at end of January; 3 to 11 on the 1st of March for both the P-38 and P-51. Are you still with me on this 'ratio thingy'?
March brought a ramp up of P-51 and 9th AF P-47s. April brought more P-51, P-38 and P-47 FGs into ops.
At the end of May the combined 9th and 8th AF TO&E for P-38, P-47 and P-51 - ALL flying escort to the VIII BC - were six P-38 (20, 55, 364, 367, 370, and 479FGs); eight P-51 (4, 339, 352, 354, 355, 359, 361 and 363FGs); Fourteen P-47 (56, 78, 353, 356, 358, 362, 365, 366, 368, 371, 373, 404, 405 and 406FGs). Sources Maurer-Maurer and Frank Olynyk. (They match)
So pick the months you want to whine about sortie balance, 'equal and relentless foe', 'foe with diminished capacity', target assignment mix, fighter pilot quality, etc. Or as you are prone to do, whimper and say that 'there you go again - discrediting me'.