One pilot who knows how to fly.

[Vraciu]

'Miracle in a corn-field' He sure did have to dodge quite a few obstacles to find that spot.

This is a scenario I emphasize with all my clients and co-pilots.    Where will you go if the fire goes out?

[Shuffler]

You must have worked for a crappy union with weak stewards and the company had jellyfish for management.



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No actually I have always been one that didn't need a union.

[bustr]

Boeing moved production to NC to not pay union rates for the MAX with their very expensive unions. Obviously it cost them with the recent crashes. Boeing's unions are unique in how a vast array of real aeronautical engineering expertise resides in the membership. The new Boeing management was relying on the MAX to make money and be competitive with Airbus around the world so they wanted to reduce production costs with the NC move and outsourcing of programing for flight systems. You dig around at Bloomberg and all this shows up.

If anything non-union Boeing management is the problem since reading whistle blower reports over the MAX production shows management allegedly pushing out their experienced engineers over constantly standing in the way of production due to cost saving problems in NC. They allegedly would have had serious problems with the unions trying to do that in Washington facilities.

At least Boeing allegedly is upgrading the MCAS for all of the MAX fleet in response to the crashes.

[Ciaphas]

Unions are double edges sword. On one side they help prevent management from bullying MX crews and from getting fired for raising the BS flag. Often times, management has no idea what the respective MX fields do and what is entailed in their MX crews day to day  job.

Management only care about numbers and meeting deadlines that were set by engineers who have no idea how to work in their respective area in the field. Yes, MX from the factory and MX at the field level are two separate beasts and completion times will vary depending on parts availability, support shop availability and let's not forget the ever present "opening a can of worms" when you dig in to a system for repair.

As an example, I am working on a mod that requires the entire cockpit be gutted (to include sub flooring), there are a few shops that we have to interface with to accomplish this modification: Avon, Engines, AR, Fuels, corrosion and E&E. anyone of these shops can find something wrong with their systems that will push the completion date by a few hours to a few weeks.

Chasing numbers will always lead to mishaps.

The other side of the sword, Unions also protect the slugs because management almost always screw up disciplinary paperwork preventing from legally firing the slug.


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[TyFoo]

Boeing moved production to NC to not pay union rates for the MAX with their very expensive unions. Obviously it cost them with the recent crashes. Boeing's unions are unique in how a vast array of real aeronautical engineering expertise resides in the membership. The new Boeing management was relying on the MAX to make money and be competitive with Airbus around the world so they wanted to reduce production costs with the NC move and outsourcing of programing for flight systems. You dig around at Bloomberg and all this shows up.

If anything non-union Boeing management is the problem since reading whistle blower reports over the MAX production shows management allegedly pushing out their experienced engineers over constantly standing in the way of production due to cost saving problems in NC. They allegedly would have had serious problems with the unions trying to do that in Washington facilities.

At least Boeing allegedly is upgrading the MCAS for all of the MAX fleet in response to the crashes.

Boeing South Carolina located in North Charleston only produces a few parts for the 737Max Engine inlet and nacelle. Parts for the 737 NG & Max (60+ %) are produced by satellite Campus's, Suppliers, and Vendors from all over the U.S. and abroad. Final assembly is performed in Renton Washington and delivery is in Seattle. There is a delivery center in China, but the last I read it was an interior finishing (only), and delivery center.

Boeing South Carolinas initial/ main purpose was and is to produce, assemble, and deliver the 787. They directly compete with the Boeing Everett Final assembly plant in Washington. This competition has kept the IAM Union and to a lesser extent the SPEEA Union representing  Engineering/ Planning/ Programmers bargaining power in check since Charleston started delivering the 787.

[MiloMorai]

Pilots did a Sully.

But, there were reports in finnish media how the flock of seagulls that the plane reportedly met were from the  illegal landfills around the area and it was a known problem that the same  seagulls liked to stay on the airfield tarmac to warm themselves up.

[ACE]

You are short sited if you think union is better than non-union.

Non-union have to all work for their pay. Union means the bum gets paid the same as a hard worker.

Non-union quality probably better as everyone working on it is worth their pay scale.

100000% true when a janitor is getting paid the same as a pipe fitter you got a problem. That’s the part of a union I can’t agree with. Also union jobs tend to take longer to complete in my world.

[Ciaphas]

100000% true when a janitor is getting paid the same as a pipe fitter you got a problem. That’s the part of a union I can’t agree with. Also union jobs tend to take longer to complete in my world.

So if your job went union, would that automatically make you slower at your job or would you be the same workers under a union?

[The Fugitive]

So if your job went union, would that automatically make you slower at your job or would you be the same workers under a union?

It forced me to. Hard worker, do my job. Union shop and now Im going to fast, working too hard, making the other guys look bad. A number of guys had "conversations" with me about my work habits. Had to slow down or have trouble with the other workers. I've been in two unions and both sucked. They took our money for their bank accounts and didnt do crap for us other than to step in when management was trying to get the workers to work 

How stupid is that? Glad Im out of the unions.

[Ciaphas]

It forced me to. Hard worker, do my job. Union shop and now Im going to fast, working too hard, making the other guys look bad. A number of guys had "conversations" with me about my work habits. Had to slow down or have trouble with the other workers. I've been in two unions and both sucked. They took our money for their bank accounts and didnt do crap for us other than to step in when management was trying to get the workers to work 

How stupid is that? Glad Im out of the unions.

You aren't "forced" to be in a union (federal law).

The timeliness of you tasks is dictated by the company not the union. Your CBA would have read something like "deliberate slow downs of production can be grounds for immediate termination.". Why on earth would the union step in when management was just trying to get you to do your job? That makes about as much sense as a football bat. The only time a union steward will step in is if there is a grievance between a worker and his management... .

[Shuffler]

You aren't "forced" to be in a union (federal law).

The timeliness of you tasks is dictated by the company not the union. Your CBA would have read something like "deliberate slow downs of production can be grounds for immediate termination.". Why on earth would the union step in when management was just trying to get you to do your job? That makes about as much sense as a football bat. The only time a union steward will step in is if there is a grievance between a worker and his management... .

Some places you still have to be in a union. Texas is a right to work state so no union required.

The protection of the slow worker is what the union is for. That is from experience.

[Ciaphas]

Protecting slugs is an unfortunate byproduct of protecting all union members.

The key issue that allows a slug to retain his job is the managements poor ability to follow their SOP when dealing with these slugs.




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[Oldman731]

Protecting slugs is an unfortunate byproduct of protecting all union members.

The key issue that allows a slug to retain his job is the managements poor ability to follow their SOP when dealing with these slugs.

Very true.  Philadelphia's transit authority, SEPTA, and the applicable transit union, TWU 234, are a good illustration. 

The resulting problem, though, is that it makes for a very unpleasant workplace.  You screw up, even just a little bit, and you're gone.  People are standing in line for your job.  There isn't the room for give-and-take that you get in a less confrontational environment.

- oldman

[The Fugitive]

You aren't "forced" to be in a union (federal law).

The timeliness of you tasks is dictated by the company not the union. Your CBA would have read something like "deliberate slow downs of production can be grounds for immediate termination.". Why on earth would the union step in when management was just trying to get you to do your job? That makes about as much sense as a football bat. The only time a union steward will step in is if there is a grievance between a worker and his management... .

If I wanted the job I had to join the union. The company was wrapped around the unions little finger. Employees did what they wanted at the rate they wanted and if management gave them any crap, in come the reps. It is the most stupid setup ever. I was so happy when they worked their way around it by having another "group" buy out the company forcing a new "union vote" and I help tell those idiots where to go. Union vote failed....tho they tried for 3 years to get back in.... and those that WORKED for the company got taken care of and those that tried to "slide" got canned. Made a much better company in the end and we all make more money then when the union was "helping" us 

[Ciaphas]

If I wanted the job I had to join the union. The company was wrapped around the unions little finger. Employees did what they wanted at the rate they wanted and if management gave them any crap, in come the reps. It is the most stupid setup ever. I was so happy when they worked their way around it by having another "group" buy out the company forcing a new "union vote" and I help tell those idiots where to go. Union vote failed....tho they tried for 3 years to get back in.... and those that WORKED for the company got taken care of and those that tried to "slide" got canned. Made a much better company in the end and we all make more money then when the union was "helping" us 

Still sounds like your managers were "yes" men. Blame it on them as it's their fault.


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