Climate change

[FLS]

I highly doubt we will have an ice age by 2030, or 2040, or 2170.

Sorry I didn't mean it literally. I don't think we have to worry about glaciers. I mean "ice age" as in Maunder minimum mini ice age. If you mean Earth covered with ice I agree that's not likely.

[OldNitro]

Toba erupted millions of years ago, almost wiped out life on earth..
Siberian Traps, caused the Permian Extinction..

Tambora eruption in 1815, shaded the whole world for years..
Caused the "year without a summer", massive crop failures..

I'd say that is pretty fair evidence that Volcanoes are a major
contributor to climate change.. Far more than puny humans are..

[Arlo]

Toba erupted millions of years ago, almost wiped out life on earth..

Tambora eruption in 1815, shaded the whole world for years..
Caused the "year without a summer", massive crop failures..

I'd say that is pretty fair evidence that Volcanoes are a major
contributor to climate change.. Far more than puny humans are..

Volcanoes are a contributor. That doesn't mean human made emissions aren't. Again, it's the percentage over that creates the tipping point. When you can figure out how to manage volcanoes then get back to me.

[OldNitro]

Point is Arlo..
Natural forces at work on the Earth, can sweep us away like we never existed..
Compared to Volcanoes, and the Sun, the human effect on climate, is almost unmeasurable..

Unless some unscrupulous people lie about it, to use as a Political tool.. So they can lay claim to the carbon cycle, and tell us we need to pay them a tax, to breath THEIR AIR!

It's about Control of the Population, leading to their ultimate goal..
Population reduction! It always comes back to THAT!
It's the pretty new face of Eugenics!

[Arlo]

Well, that's weird conspiracy. Yet an obvious admission that you don't have a cure for volcanoes.

[Mister Fork]

I used to be a climate change denier - I always thought that the destruction of our natural resources and wildlife habitat was the issue.  I thought that the scientists were fear mongers - after research money and attention/fame the more they could scream about how the planet is melting.

And then the scientific articles others produced were peer-reviewed. And reviewed. And reviewed again. And again. And no one could easily refute the science they used to come to their analysis. Right up there on fear-mongering about GMO foods. Science proved me wrong there too.

I certainly haven't seen a good scientifically peer-reviewed article that the temperatures AREN'T increasing.  I also haven't seen any scientifically proven articles that the oceans are getting colder. I also haven't seen any scientifically proven articles that CO² levels are decreasing. 

And for a lot of us who tend not to trust what they see or hear from the media or government, climate change can be a really harsh debate. I tend not to trust either. Just give me the facts..but the facts are SO hard to trust.

And I must say, this is perhaps one of the nicest discussions on climate change I've seen in a while.  Everyone is well, quite polite about the interactions. No name-calling or giving wedgies.

Though Arlo is still a putz. But that's just Arlo! 

[OldNitro]

In case some don't remember..
Check out the 10:10 Campaign video.. "There will be blood"..
I have a long memory.. It's available if ya search for it..

Can't miss the messaging in that..
It's all about control.. That's why I call em Econazis..

[DmonSlyr]

I used to be a climate change denier - I always thought that the destruction of our natural resources and wildlife habitat was the issue.  I thought that the scientists were fear mongers - after research money and attention/fame the more they could scream about how the planet is melting.

And then the scientific articles others produced were peer-reviewed. And reviewed. And reviewed again. And again. And no one could easily refute the science they used to come to their analysis. Right up there on fear-mongering about GMO foods. Science proved me wrong there too.

I certainly haven't seen a good scientifically peer-reviewed article that the temperatures AREN'T increasing.  I also haven't seen any scientifically proven articles that the oceans are getting colder. I also haven't seen any scientifically proven articles that CO² levels are decreasing. 

And for a lot of us who tend not to trust what they see or hear from the media or government, climate change can be a really harsh debate. I tend not to trust either. Just give me the facts..but the facts are SO hard to trust.

And I must say, this is perhaps one of the nicest discussions on climate change I've seen in a while.  Everyone is well, quite polite about the interactions. No name-calling or giving wedgies.

Though Arlo is still a putz. But that's just Arlo! 

The Club or Rome invented climate change to create a new one world government revolution. Don't fall for it. There thousands of scientist who have written studies to stand up against this fraud. You don't see them because they don't get left wing media attention. Climate change is a fraud to put you in perpetual fear. Follow the money. Like I said, when the celebs start rapidly moving off the coast of Miami, then maybe I'll take them seriously. Until then, it's a money grab to fund the UN to take over sovereignty of independent nations. 

[Mister Fork]

The Club of Rome invented climate change to create a new one-world government revolution. Don't fall for it. There thousands of scientists who have written studies to stand up against this fraud. You don't see them because they don't get left-wing media attention. Climate change is a fraud to put you in perpetual fear. Follow the money. Like I said, when the celebs start rapidly moving off the coast of Miami, then maybe I'll take them seriously. Until then, it's a money grab to fund the UN to take over the sovereignty of independent nations. 

...but what about the sheep??!?!

[bozon]

OK, since this debate is fairly civil, here is my POV on the matter.

1. Is there climate change? This is such a poorly defined question that a person with an agenda can easily twist it so the answer suits his needs. However, even if there is a climate change, it is a very minor effect. 20 years of this BS are long enough to refute the predictions of the models from 20 and even 10 years ago. Practically all of them over predicted global temperatures. Perhaps new ones are better, but the track record does not give much confidence in the people are doing them. We’ll see in a few years, because the people of the world will not do anything significant to prevent the forecasted weather change.

2. Assuming that there is a climate change, is the CO2 the cause?
Well, I am not up to date with the new models, but the old ones from 10 years ago were just awful in the way they handled the radiation transfer through the atmosphere. Against intuition, green house gas can only block so much radiation from escaping. When the physics of radiation transfer is done correctly, you get that there is a saturation point beyond which adding more green house gas (co2 in our case) hardly blocks any more radiation. If CO2 is to blame than this has to involve some indirect effect of vegetation or something, but not greenhouse effect.

3. OK, lets say that there is climate change and co2 is to blame- what should we do?
Well, we should do absolutely NOTHING that will attempt to affect the weather. We clearly don’t understand the system and should not mess with it in any drastic way. On top of that, the chances that someone can force the world population to act in a coordinated way towards this goal are zero. Not near zero - absolute zero. Therefore the $$$ are better invested in learning how to live in a world that is 2 degrees hotter than wasted on attempts to prevent that warming. Such a research will benefit humanity even if climate change is proven wrong!

4. So climate change is cow excrement. Should we burn more fossil fuels and release as much co2 as we like?
NO!
Fossil fuels produce actual pollution that is not co2. All this **** about co2 made people forget what pollution is, as opposed to a natural gas that is an essential component of life and nature. CO2 itself is not an issue, but the processes that release it usually involve real pollution in the form of toxins, heavy metals, other stuff that is bad to your health, and ugly stuff that is not recycled by nature (at least on time scales of human generations) that I do not want to see around me.
So emitting less CO2 is good, but low CO2 is not a measure of cleanliness. We absolutely shouldn’t damage the economy in order to reduce CO2. A stronger economy means more resources to fight actual pollution.

[Mister Fork]

All valid points Bozon. Isn't the bigger issue though the consumption economic model we're all living buy today just isn't sustainable? And that same model is causing all the pollution and ecosystem harm?

Kinda along the lines - why does me going 'green' mean I have to buy something?

[DmonSlyr]

All valid points Bozon. Isn't the bigger issue though the consumption economic model we're all living buy today just isn't sustainable? And that same model is causing all the pollution and ecosystem harm?

Kinda along the lines - why does me going 'green' mean I have to buy something?

Is it unsustainable though? The US has proved it's not. I mean if we shut everything down that was blowing smoke into the air, and we all had to live like Indians in the 1500s, youd see more trash and pollution covering the US than ever before. Just look at how much trash homless people leave behind. Where I work, we have 10 broken down RVs down the street that the police won't do crap about. You wouldn't believe the amount of trash these people leave behind. Is this really 'sustainable'? Is this really better for the environment and climate?

If you cannot feel any of the smog from China, or feel any of the effects from any volcanoes in the last 10 years, what makes you think the climate you are in is feeling any of the effects from that smog? It's not. Oregon has some of the cleanest air on the planet. The sun hits very hard here because of the lack of molecules in the air. Then look at California and how smoggy it is. Oregon doesn't feel any of the effects from California's smog. That's less than 500 miles away. Therefore nothing is changing Oregon's climate. C02 breaks down in the atmosphere easier than most any other compound. How does C02 go all of the way to Antarctica and cause the ice caps to melt? It's scientifically impossible. You guys believe the earth is much smaller than it actually is. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that american capitalism is unsustainable. Infact it has been the most sustainable and prosperous way of life ever created in the history of our planet.

[Chalenge]

The people that complain the most about a coming climate disaster are the worst polluters. Gore, and Musk for are instances that prove the point. Gore for the way he lives and Musk for the footprint of his industry. Even the methane engine of SpaceX is a worse carbon producer than even cars of the 1960s! It must be a way to compensate for their inadequacies.

[Bruv119]

I think I'm going to move to higher ground.  Maybe move to Wales.  Property should be super cheap as no-one has jobs there.

Zack why haven't we left yet????

[TequilaChaser]

I can skin a buck and run a trot line.......

and I got plenty ammo for .my old. 45