Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS

[davidpt40]

In the Ethopian airlines crash, MCAS was shut off, and the manual trim wheel was used.  But it still wouldn't trim.  See this YouTube video by this airline pilot who talks about the auto-throttle system preventing it.  It's only 12 minutes, and you can skip the first 2 where he complains about lighting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skbUDZb1Ybs

[Vraciu]

In the Ethopian airlines crash, MCAS was shut off, and the manual trim wheel was used.  But it still wouldn't trim.  See this YouTube video by this airline pilot who talks about the auto-throttle system preventing it.  It's only 12 minutes, and you can skip the first 2 where he complains about lighting.

 

You cannot trim by hand when you are doing over 350 knots down low (exceeding the airplane's Vmo) because you didn't reduce power from the takeoff setting.

And they did move the stab manually about twenty percent of what was needed, so the notion they couldn't move it is bogus.

I'm no Boeing fan when it comes to the 737 in general (Southwest has bullied them into keeping it old, outdated, and "dumb") but this is on the crew.

[TyFoo]

If you read the transcript, there was 8 seconds from the time the F.O. asked the Captain if he should try to manually trim the aircraft, received an affirmative response, attempted to move the wheel, and report that he was unable to trim the aircraft.

8 seconds. In essence there was no manual movement of the trim. Even if the auto throttle went into this “low altitude level off” situation he describes and did not adjust thrust for proper airspeed, the crew should have.

In the comment section, a 737 pilot comments when the Video speaks to startle factor” the emergent situation, and the fact that the crew was overwhelmed with multiple alarms, stick shaker input, etc, and states that they should have flown the plane first.

Meaning they should have hit the big red disconnect button disabling the autopilot, trim, and auto throttle - get straight and level, back to a manageable airspeed and then started working the problem. They were in VMC conditions, had they been IMC, I could see a lot of things going wrong very fast.

I believe that MCAS was an issue. However, the lack of airmanship, having a low time F.O. in the right seat and an obvious lack of company training in type are significant contributing factors to this accident. As an example, It took 3:45 min/seconds for the F.O. to “Look Up” a Memory Item”.

The very fact that the “Ethiopian Governments version of the FAA” in their report overlooks the airmanship & training side of things so as not to discredit the pilots and or the Airline makes them complicit and directly contributes to the unsafe & hazardous culture that leads to accidents like this.

[FLS]

Ethiopian airlines is owned by the Ethiopian government which determined everything was someone else's fault.

[Haskell]

The very fact that the “Ethiopian Governments version of the FAA” in their report overlooks the airmanship & training side of things so as not to discredit the pilots and or the Airline makes them complicit and directly contributes to the unsafe & hazardous culture that leads to accidents like this.

The NTSB said they followed Boeing's guidelines by the book (which MCAS was not in).

[Vraciu]

The NTSB said they followed Boeing's guidelines by the book (which MCAS was not in).

That's a flat out lie, then.

Also, MCAS *IS* in the book and has been from the beginning.    It's irrelvant.

You do not re-engage a runaway trim system.  That is nowhere in any manual.   When a trim system runs away you disable it.  Period.

They re-engaged it, thus they could not have followed Boeing's guidelines (also known as a Non-Normal Checklist).

[Vraciu]

If you read the transcript, there was 8 seconds from the time the F.O. asked the Captain if he should try to manually trim the aircraft, received an affirmative response, attempted to move the wheel, and report that he was unable to trim the aircraft.

8 seconds. In essence there was no manual movement of the trim. Even if the auto throttle went into this “low altitude level off” situation he describes and did not adjust thrust for proper airspeed, the crew should have.

In the comment section, a 737 pilot comments when the Video speaks to startle factor” the emergent situation, and the fact that the crew was overwhelmed with multiple alarms, stick shaker input, etc, and states that they should have flown the plane first.

Meaning they should have hit the big red disconnect button disabling the autopilot, trim, and auto throttle - get straight and level, back to a manageable airspeed and then started working the problem. They were in VMC conditions, had they been IMC, I could see a lot of things going wrong very fast.

I believe that MCAS was an issue. However, the lack of airmanship, having a low time F.O. in the right seat and an obvious lack of company training in type are significant contributing factors to this accident. As an example, It took 3:45 min/seconds for the F.O. to “Look Up” a Memory Item”.

The very fact that the “Ethiopian Governments version of the FAA” in their report overlooks the airmanship & training side of things so as not to discredit the pilots and or the Airline makes them complicit and directly contributes to the unsafe & hazardous culture that leads to accidents like this.

Meanwhile, the continued to fly the airplane at Takeoff Thrust until impact.    Even an electric trim motor can be overloaded aerodynamically if you are flying too fast.

I recently experienced this exact failure in a B-737 simulator with an STS runaway.  It's a non-event if you know how to fly.

[Puma44]

In the Ethopian airlines crash, MCAS was shut off, and the manual trim wheel was used.  But it still wouldn't trim.  See this YouTube video by this airline pilot who talks about the auto-throttle system preventing it.  It's only 12 minutes, and you can skip the first 2 where he complains about lighting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skbUDZb1Ybs

This is a “HEY LOOK AT ME!” YouTube video from a guy who admittedly has not flown the 737 or it’s simulator, yet passes himself off as some sort of authority on the subject.  He fails to mention that the Ethiopian pilots could have merely disconnected the auto throttles and simply reduced power, slowed down, and then manually trimmed the jet. Once again, Private Pilot 101:  Fly the aircraft and maintain aircraft control.  Instead, they burned into the ground at very high airspeed with the thrust levers at takeoff power setting. 

[guncrasher]

that's what scares the crap out of me.  "it's a non issue".  hey there's problem with my car, something is wrong but I am a great driver, so "it's a non issue".


semp

[guncrasher]

This is a “HEY LOOK AT ME!” YouTube video from a guy who admittedly has not flown the 737 or it’s simulator, yet passes himself off as some sort of authority on the subject.  He fails to mention that the Ethiopian pilots could have merely disconnected the auto throttles and simply reduced power, slowed down, and then manually trimmed the jet. Once again, Private Pilot 101:  Fly the aircraft and maintain aircraft control.  Instead, they burned into the ground at very high airspeed with the thrust levers at takeoff power setting.

look at me I can handle it in a simulator.  have asked have you ever experienced this "anomaly" in this type of plane.  not one here have said yes.


semp

[Easyscor]

After you quote Puma you can begin your reply with "Captain" as he recently retired as such from Southwest.

 

[FLS]

that's what scares the crap out of me.  "it's a non issue".  hey there's problem with my car, something is wrong but I am a great driver, so "it's a non issue".


semp

You have it backwards. You don't need something wrong with your car to crash. Most aircraft accidents occur to flyable planes. Just like the thousands of daily car crashes, it's the person in control making mistakes and not getting away with it this time.

[Vraciu]

look at me I can handle it in a simulator.  have asked have you ever experienced this "anomaly" in this type of plane.  not one here have said yes.


semp

Compared to the actual aircraft a simulator is harder, for a variety of reasons.

[Vraciu]

that's what scares the crap out of me.  "it's a non issue".  hey there's problem with my car, something is wrong but I am a great driver, so "it's a non issue".


semp

Oh, there's an issue.   Too bad you can't fix stupid.   

Third world airlines are notorious for incompetence on multiple levels.

[Vraciu]

You have it backwards. You don't need something wrong with your car to crash. Most aircraft accidents occur to flyable planes. Just like the thousands of daily car crashes, it's the person in control making mistakes and not getting away with it this time.

This.

Semp should be more afraid of pilots from Third World countries than airplanes from First World ones.