Author Topic: How To Fix The Game  (Read 7368 times)

Offline CptTrips

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Re: How To Fix The Game
« Reply #75 on: January 06, 2020, 10:42:36 AM »
Pro tip. Arguing like a teenager hurts your credibility.

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Offline Oldman731

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Re: How To Fix The Game
« Reply #76 on: January 06, 2020, 10:46:53 AM »
And as for community toxicity, AH is normal or even tame compared to other games.  Daily players can be very competitive and the game itself lends itself to competition, so there is banter, but if you think the AH community is toxic I feel bad for your feelings if you actually go outside regularly.   


That other games are as bad, or worse, doesn't lessen the toxic effect.  We have actually seen how the unpleasant manners of just a few players can drive people out of an arena.  At AH's present stage, driving them out of an arena essentially drives them out of the game.  Telling them to just man up and ignore the abuse, especially when they're evaluating whether they want to invest the time and money in AH, likely leads some to ask themselves, "Why?"

There's no practical way to eliminate rudeness and chest-thumping, but it would certainly be nice if people who act that way tried to stifle themselves a bit.

- oldman

Offline Vraciu

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Re: How To Fix The Game
« Reply #77 on: January 06, 2020, 10:49:58 AM »

That other games are as bad, or worse, doesn't lessen the toxic effect.  We have actually seen how the unpleasant manners of just a few players can drive people out of an arena.  At AH's present stage, driving them out of an arena essentially drives them out of the game.  Telling them to just man up and ignore the abuse, especially when they're evaluating whether they want to invest the time and money in AH, likely leads some to ask themselves, "Why?"

There's no practical way to eliminate rudeness and chest-thumping, but it would certainly be nice if people who act that way tried to stifle themselves a bit.

- oldman

Own-country com only.   

I don't remember what Warbirds had but I don't remember cross-country there.    Been awhile though.
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Offline RAG

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Re: How To Fix The Game
« Reply #78 on: January 06, 2020, 10:56:20 AM »
How about someone (i dont know how to btw) setting up a free arena very much like the current main arena, but with just 2 sides maybe... give it a try for a while, smallish map, anyone can join in, perhaps some of you guys will just bear with it for a bit and join in as well to make it fun etc and see how if feels?  i'm not suggesting leaving a free MA up for ever as of course HTC must have revenue but it may answer a few questions and even be the catalyst for some ideas and resolutions....?

Offline Vraciu

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Re: How To Fix The Game
« Reply #79 on: January 06, 2020, 11:01:56 AM »
How about someone (i dont know how to btw) setting up a free arena very much like the current main arena, but with just 2 sides maybe... give it a try for a while, smallish map, anyone can join in, perhaps some of you guys will just bear with it for a bit and join in as well to make it fun etc and see how if feels?  i'm not suggesting leaving a free MA up for ever as of course HTC must have revenue but it may answer a few questions and even be the catalyst for some ideas and resolutions....?

Prying people out of the MA is near-impossible for a variety of reasons.
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Offline Wiley

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Re: How To Fix The Game
« Reply #80 on: January 06, 2020, 11:11:01 AM »
Own-country com only.   

I don't remember what Warbirds had but I don't remember cross-country there.    Been awhile though.

WBs did have cross-country, similar to 200.  One other oddity with comms on WBs at the time was at some point someone, might've been Columbo discovered that anybody could transmit on the other country's country channel but couldn't see replies.  They spent an evening trolling the other side to many cries of HAX!!! and SPIEZ!!! from the other country.

One thing I find really ironic about the people saying cross country is the debil is I've squelched FAR more people for what they were talking about on channel 2 vs squelching people from the other countries.  YMMV.

Wiley.
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: How To Fix The Game
« Reply #81 on: January 06, 2020, 11:30:05 AM »
WBs did have cross-country, similar to 200.  One other oddity with comms on WBs at the time was at some point someone, might've been Columbo discovered that anybody could transmit on the other country's country channel but couldn't see replies.  They spent an evening trolling the other side to many cries of HAX!!! and SPIEZ!!! from the other country.

One thing I find really ironic about the people saying cross country is the debil is I've squelched FAR more people for what they were talking about on channel 2 vs squelching people from the other countries.  YMMV.

Wiley.

 :rofl

Epic.


Good old Columbo.
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Offline ccvi

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Re: How To Fix The Game
« Reply #82 on: January 06, 2020, 02:02:40 PM »
I agree that many players don't appreciate how good the flight model is but in fact it does teach you enough to really fly.

Flight models of other games are good enough for that, too. All of them are better than pre-computer synthetic flight training devices, which were certified to be good enough to be used to learn flying. As for game-play, there is a level of "good enough". It's nice that the planes match available data, but that only helps to limit bbs crying, it doesn't help to make the game more entertaining.

The engine management model is simplified on purpose because those things are second nature to a fighter pilot by the time he gets into combat. So flying real aircraft does require additional training.

Given the low number of hours at least some war-time pilots had I doubt anything became second nature. And it's not only the engine. Automatic fuel system, arbitrary head movements, no gun-jams, can't blow tires on landing, ... Plus the way we're abusing the planes by continuously firewalling throttles, killing ignition mid-flight, spinning with flaps-down, loading them beyond MOTM ... I'm not trying to argue that these things should be real, but just asking why the flight-model needs to be an exception and be real beyond simply "good enough", if almost everything else isn't.

Wouldn't a player looking for "real" look elsewhere for various other aspects of the simulation, even if the flight-model might be somewhat inferior? Are limitations of a good-enough flight model noticeable to a new player, or even any player without actual expertise in the flight regime where the simulation deviates from reality?

What do you think is wrong with trim tabs?

Trim tabs deflect from the control surface to create a force on the control surface. They do so by being moved in the opposite direction of the intended deflection (e.g., to trim the elevator up the trim tab needs to go down). This decreases the effective size of the control surface. As a result, at full deflection of the control surface it is more effective when trimmed against that deflection. In AH the biggest effect is achieved by full deflection and trimmed to support the direction of the deflection. Its not noticeable in most situations because stick position is force, not actual control surface position (*) and deflection is limited by the pilots strength, but in situations where the deflection is not limited by the strength of the pilot (slow speed, low force needed for full deflection) and where authority is limited (easiest tried in inverted flight) the behavior can be observed.

Does it matter for a game? Not really. Where's the transition from "bad" flight-model to "good enough" flight-model? How does the "best" flight-model help to persuade a player to play this instead of something else?

(*) add to the list of non-real things above, but that cannot be solved in software, it needs a different kind of joystick.

Offline akbmzawy

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Re: How To Fix The Game
« Reply #83 on: January 06, 2020, 02:11:08 PM »
Curious if anyone has clicked on the hyperlink in AKKuyas original post for this thread. He is attempting to experiment to find some ideas for some varied scenarios. 6 pages of comments and none about his intentions.

Offline Vraciu

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Re: How To Fix The Game
« Reply #84 on: January 06, 2020, 02:30:53 PM »
Flight models of other games are good enough for that, too. All of them are better than pre-computer synthetic flight training devices, which were certified to be good enough to be used to learn flying. As for game-play, there is a level of "good enough". It's nice that the planes match available data, but that only helps to limit bbs crying, it doesn't help to make the game more entertaining.

Given the low number of hours at least some war-time pilots had I doubt anything became second nature. And it's not only the engine. Automatic fuel system, arbitrary head movements, no gun-jams, can't blow tires on landing, ... Plus the way we're abusing the planes by continuously firewalling throttles, killing ignition mid-flight, spinning with flaps-down, loading them beyond MOTM ... I'm not trying to argue that these things should be real, but just asking why the flight-model needs to be an exception and be real beyond simply "good enough", if almost everything else isn't.

Wouldn't a player looking for "real" look elsewhere for various other aspects of the simulation, even if the flight-model might be somewhat inferior? Are limitations of a good-enough flight model noticeable to a new player, or even any player without actual expertise in the flight regime where the simulation deviates from reality?

Trim tabs deflect from the control surface to create a force on the control surface. They do so by being moved in the opposite direction of the intended deflection (e.g., to trim the elevator up the trim tab needs to go down). This decreases the effective size of the control surface. As a result, at full deflection of the control surface it is more effective when trimmed against that deflection. In AH the biggest effect is achieved by full deflection and trimmed to support the direction of the deflection. Its not noticeable in most situations because stick position is force, not actual control surface position (*) and deflection is limited by the pilots strength, but in situations where the deflection is not limited by the strength of the pilot (slow speed, low force needed for full deflection) and where authority is limited (easiest tried in inverted flight) the behavior can be observed.

Does it matter for a game? Not really. Where's the transition from "bad" flight-model to "good enough" flight-model? How does the "best" flight-model help to persuade a player to play this instead of something else?

(*) add to the list of non-real things above, but that cannot be solved in software, it needs a different kind of joystick.

You need an education in trim tabs (along with servo tabs and anti-servo tabs).

 :old:


Airplanes were often over-grossed during the war, too. 

 :old:
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Offline Wiley

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Re: How To Fix The Game
« Reply #85 on: January 06, 2020, 03:27:13 PM »
Where's the transition from "bad" flight-model to "good enough" flight-model? How does the "best" flight-model help to persuade a player to play this instead of something else?

Unless it's a procedure sim trying to compete with DCS, I really don't think it matters much to the vast majority of gamers.

Curious if anyone has clicked on the hyperlink in AKKuyas original post for this thread. He is attempting to experiment to find some ideas for some varied scenarios. 6 pages of comments and none about his intentions.

I'll play.  1) Design by committee won't end well.

2)  Scenario players are a subset of the playerbase.  Right or wrong, most people view scenarios/FSO as not really part of the "game" which they consider the MA.

I suppose the option to make the game pretty much completely scenario based is a change, not sure how that would make the game more attractive than an always up arena.

Wiley.
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Offline ccvi

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Re: How To Fix The Game
« Reply #86 on: January 06, 2020, 04:14:06 PM »
You need an education in trim tabs (along with servo tabs and anti-servo tabs).

I'm pretty sure most planes in AH use normal or servo tabs. I doubt many ww2 planes had moving stabilizers, so they probably do not matter for this discussion (though I have to admit that I did no specific research on which plane in AH uses what).

You might want to think before rejecting the idea. Or even better, please try it (on a plane with normal or servo trim). Full deflection, then change trim, observe the effect. Or simply freeze the elevator manually before changing trim (crazy variant: attach gust lock), but it would be impossible to get a data point in AH to compare to.

When the control surface is frozen (at max deflection or stuck), the trim tab doesn't move the control surface (because it doesn't move), but acts as a control surface itself. A small one, in the reversed direction (compared to its effect when moving the control surface). In AH, it seems to be able to move the control surface beyond the full deflection, at least that's how the effect feels.


Offline FLS

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Re: How To Fix The Game
« Reply #87 on: January 06, 2020, 05:56:42 PM »
AH properly models the effect of the trim tab. There is no need to model the trim tab and the control surface separately.

Offline Vinkman

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Re: How To Fix The Game
« Reply #88 on: January 07, 2020, 07:34:50 AM »

I had started a topic thread 7-8 years ago about the Aces High players buying the game from Dale.

why on Earth would that be a good thing?  You realize Dale IS the game, right? Without Dale writing code there is no Aces High. You couldn't hire enough people to figure out how to make changes and still have a working product, or keep it a working product in light of the hardware and tech changes that take place in an industry like this.

This gets a negative score that exceeds any lotto winnings.  :salute
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: How To Fix The Game
« Reply #89 on: January 07, 2020, 09:31:21 AM »
why on Earth would that be a good thing?  You realize Dale IS the game, right? Without Dale writing code there is no Aces High. You couldn't hire enough people to figure out how to make changes and still have a working product, or keep it a working product in light of the hardware and tech changes that take place in an industry like this.

This gets a negative score that exceeds any lotto winnings.  :salute

Yeah, I mean think of the knowledge required to keep up with a customized engine.  Yikes.
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