Author Topic: Boeing 737 Max  (Read 8032 times)

Offline guncrasher

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Re: Boeing 737 Max
« Reply #90 on: July 04, 2020, 09:22:49 PM »
Give up Toad. They have no idea.

well he asked a narrow question with only a yes/no answer.  and basically both answers are correct.

only two cases I have heard both airplanes crashes.  so no is correct.  have i heard of another then yes would be correct.

now for return to base part. I've been to many bases with no runways, so answer no is correct. if base is pilot lingo for proper airport then yes would be correct.

you can say I'm just being obtuse, but I totally believe both answers are correct when only given yes/no options.

that's why i ask would you like to know more.  i also believe no matter what, Toad believes yes is the only acceptable answer. and i agree with him while explaining why no is also correct.


semp
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Offline guncrasher

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Re: Boeing 737 Max
« Reply #91 on: July 04, 2020, 09:33:27 PM »
just to point out his question is similar to this

is 2+2=4. answer yes or no.

both answers are correct. learned that when asked a narrow question with only yes/no. both can be correct majority of the time.

semp
you dont want me to ho, dont point your plane at me.

Offline Shuffler

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Re: Boeing 737 Max
« Reply #92 on: July 04, 2020, 10:39:03 PM »
well he asked a narrow question with only a yes/no answer.  and basically both answers are correct.

only two cases I have heard both airplanes crashes.  so no is correct.  have i heard of another then yes would be correct.

now for return to base part. I've been to many bases with no runways, so answer no is correct. if base is pilot lingo for proper airport then yes would be correct.

you can say I'm just being obtuse, but I totally believe both answers are correct when only given yes/no options.

that's why i ask would you like to know more.  i also believe no matter what, Toad believes yes is the only acceptable answer. and i agree with him while explaining why no is also correct.


semp

He even made the question as easy as possible and you still are not capable of answering.
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Offline guncrasher

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Re: Boeing 737 Max
« Reply #93 on: July 04, 2020, 11:20:11 PM »
He even made the question as easy as possible and you still are not capable of answering.

I answered it and also give reasons why either yes or no would be true.

for example if you ask can a  man fall out of an airplane from 10+ altitude and survive.  the correct answer is yes, people have survive with no parachute.

but you can always argue no.  when if comes down to yes/no.  both answers can actually be true.

but back to his questions, can you land that airplane, answer is yes, however you can also argue that no.  both answers would be correct if only choice is yes/no.

semp
you dont want me to ho, dont point your plane at me.

Offline FESS67

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Re: Boeing 737 Max
« Reply #94 on: July 05, 2020, 01:15:05 AM »

Fess, can an aircraft fly without AOA indications? Without an AOA disagreement light? (BTW, the Ethiopian pilots DID NOT follow the Boeing guidelines. Unless you think never reducing power from takeoff thrust and overspeeding the aircraft in a steep climb and turning the Stab Trim Cutout switches back on is Boeing guidelines.)

Sure, without MCAS the flight could have been made safely.

Now to you Fess: Had the MCAS system been correctly disabled after the AOA malfunction, would Lion/Ethiopian have made a safe return?

Most likely yes, it would have made a safe return.  The reason I am saying most likely is that the Ethiopian pilots are reported to have followed the Boeing guidelines for disabling MCAS however as you stated, they left other aspects of the flight uncontrolled which complicated the situation to the point of fatality.

I think that semp brings an interesting and perhaps important factor into the discussion.  We know that MCAS activation has been encountered on 2 aircraft on 3 separate flights.  2 of those incidents proved fatal as it appears that the crews became overwhelmed and were unable to regain proper control of the aircraft.  On the flight which did not crash a third pilot was on hand and they were able to remedy the issue.

There are a number of questions that come out of this:

  • Did the jump seat pilot correctly diagnose the issue or did he get lucky?  I say lucky because remember at this stage Boeing had not made the presence of MCAS widely known.
  • If that 3rd pilot had been one of the regular crew that day and there had not been a third pilot present would he have made the same decision or would he have become overwhelmed as with the other crews?
[li]Have there been any other recorded instances of MCAS activation and subsequent correction by the aircrew under normal (i.e. not test) conditions?
[/li][/list]

As semp said, we know of 3 activations and 2 were fatal.  That is a pretty small data set but it leads us to where we are now which is some think that the crew were the deciding factor whereas I believe it was the system.  I think the fact that the Max has been grounded for so long and the 'upgrade' has faced a couple more hurdles along the way suggests that the system was in fact a major player here. 

Offline FESS67

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Re: Boeing 737 Max
« Reply #95 on: July 05, 2020, 02:58:36 AM »
Give up Toad. They have no idea.

Enlighten me Shuffler.  What is it you think I have no idea about?

I am sure you will give a non committal BS 1 liner comment that shows you invest in nothing but glib comments but I am prepared to be amazed this time.

Offline Toad

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Re: Boeing 737 Max
« Reply #96 on: July 05, 2020, 06:54:40 AM »
well I did answer correctly based on how you phrased the question. again i don't know pilot lingo and my answer is again no. i actually believe you can't even take off much less land.

i could have explained why but you only take yes/no.


semp

Indeed, you said the aircraft would be incapable of flight.

If you answer "no", that a 737MAX is rendered incapable of flight if it experiences an AOA malfunction coupled with an MCAS activation, then please explain how Lion Air JT043 from Denpasar to Jakarta on Oct. 29, 2018 (the night before the crash of Lion Air 610 which was the same aircraft with the same malfunction).

How did the same aircraft make it to Jakarta with the same malfunction the night before?
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Offline Toad

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Re: Boeing 737 Max
« Reply #97 on: July 05, 2020, 07:41:51 AM »
The reason I am saying most likely is that the Ethiopian pilots are reported to have followed the Boeing guidelines for disabling MCAS however as you stated, they left other aspects of the flight uncontrolled which complicated the situation to the point of fatality.

In fact, they DID NOT follow the Boeing procedure for disabling the MCAS. They did turn off the Stab Trim switches eventually BUT they re-engaged them later. The Boeing procedure states to leave them OFF.

You have hit the crux of the issue when you say "they left other aspects of the flight uncontrolled which complicated the situation to the point of fatality".

This is where the professional pilots in the industry part company with the Blame Boeing bunch. The Ethiopian crew left the power at 94% (takeoff), were climbing at 1500fpm while overspeeding the airframe with the stick full aft. They did disable the Stab Trim and tried to trim manually (while holding the stick full aft) but the aerodynamic load on the stab while exceeding Vmo would essentially prevent King Kong from being able to manually trim the stab.

That tale of the FDR is NOT the tale of a well trained experienced crew. You can say they were overwhelmed or confused; that's probably true. That's where training and experience come to the fore. When these two Captains had the last chance to break the accident chain...they failed in their duty.

The Runaway Stab Trim procedure really hasn't changed in the Boeing fleet from the B707 up to now. These two Captains supposedly had prior Boeing and specifically B737 experience. If so, they had undoubtedly _experienced_  the malfunction and procedure in simulators multiple times. If not, their training was deficient.

Further, these disasters begin with a simple AOA malfunction. This is another malfunction that they _should_ have seen in training in other aircraft. It doesn't matter which aircraft; AOA malfunctions are initially countered by using normal pitch and power to get to a safe altitude to work the problem in all aircraft. That did not happen in either Max accident.

As to MCAS activation, again I'll point out very basic airmanship. I cannot imagine that these two Captains had never heard or been exposed to the standard procedure, common to all aircraft everywhere, that when you move a secondary flight control (flaps) and the aircraft immediately acts in an unexpected, uncommanded manner, you IMMEDIATELY put that flight control back where it was. Thus, when both crews retracted the flaps and the nose pitched down unexpectedly and uncommanded, the flap lever should have immediately been returned to the previous position. MCAS does not work with flaps extended. Period. So had these Captains done what pilots have been told to do since secondary flight controls were invented, no MCAS, no crashes. Again, this is Airmanship 101. You don't need to know anything about MCAS to do this basic procedure. There are things you just have to know.

I could go on with the fatal flaws in crew performance. This is long enough, however. Clearly, as Puma (and others have pointed out repeatedly) the crew is always in a position to break the accident chain at some point. These two crews did not have what was necessary, be it training or experience or even just the ability to think and act under pressure. The mantra "maintain aircraft control, analyze the situation and take the proper action" was beyond their abilities on those two days.

Now, don't take all this to mean I feel Boeing is blameless. Boeing bears guilt, without doubt.

1) Boeing went to the well one time too many on the 737.  Should have just bit the bullet and built a new aircraft to compete with the Neo.

2) Boeing had to be IDIOTS not to include detailed information on the MCAS system in the docs and training, to include the specific abnormal/emergency procedure.

3) AOA displays should have been standard on the PFD along with the disagree light. Charging extra for those on a modern aircraft is ridiculous. Doubt another gauge would have saved Lion/Ethiopian though. AF447 that went down in the South Atlantic didn't have an AOA gauge; they didn't ground the Airbus for that.

4) This whole debacle isn't over yet. It may well kill Boeing. The continual screwups with the KC-46 Tanker are also damaging the Boeing brand. Together, it makes for deep problems selling Boeing aircraft. With the Max and KC-46 they are looking like the gang that couldn't shoot straight. I place these problems primarily at the feet of management. (While McDonnell built great fighters, they built lousy transports. MD-11 as a prime example. Does the stretching the great DC-9 into the not so great MD-88 presage the stretching of the great 737 to no so great Max? The injection of McD managers into Boeing after the purchase of McD did not improve Boeings transport aircraft.)

Still, despite Boeing's mistakes, both aircraft were flyable. Put the flaps back out, no MCAS activation. Use the Stab Trim Cutout switches, no MCAS activation. Pitch/Power/Performance - no crashes. In the end, the pilots failed to break the accident chain. Neither crew was up to the challenge at that moment on that day.


If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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Re: Boeing 737 Max
« Reply #98 on: July 05, 2020, 07:57:49 AM »
Fess you make another interesting point:
Quote
There are a number of questions that come out of this:

Did the jump seat pilot correctly diagnose the issue or did he get lucky?  I say lucky because remember at this stage Boeing had not made the presence of MCAS widely known.

If that 3rd pilot had been one of the regular crew that day and there had not been a third pilot present would he have made the same decision or would he have become overwhelmed as with the other crews?

As to the first, does anyone else find it interesting that the jumpseat pilot has never been identified? It has been stated that he was 737Max qualified. It has been stated that he was interviewed by the National Transportation Safety Committee (KNKT). The KNKT has declined to comment on his role in saving the aircraft.

However, it's been generally acknowledged that the jumpseat pilot got them to turn off the Stab Trim. Isn't this guy a hero? Didn't he save 100+ lives? He's kind of a Lion Air Sully, no? Why haven't we seen him on TV? Why hasn't he commented?

I don't know the answers but I find it damn strange that he's been kept totally under wraps.

Further the KNKT says there's no CVR from that flight. I'm pretty sure the MAX CVR will record the last two hours of operation. I read somewhere that on the jumpseat flight, they flew an hour to Jakarta after the MCAS incident. The Lion Air 610 was airborne only a few minutes. Even with start up and taxi etc, there should still have been CVR data from the jumpseat flight. Things that make you go "hmmmmmmm".

No one will ever know if, had the jumpseat pilot been in command of Lion Air 610, would 610 have crashed. What we do know is that when he was present in the cockpit, he was able to break the accident chain. He knew the answer. This is why I would like to know more about him. What was his experience level? What was his training? What were his prior Type Ratings?

I will say that when the big trim wheel rotates in a 737 cockpit it's very hard not to notice it; almost impossible.

In fact, I'm so curious that I'll pay HT for two months of AH for anyone that can track down and document just who that jumpseat pilot was. I have been unable to do that but perhaps my Google-Fu is weakening with old age.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Puma44

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Re: Boeing 737 Max
« Reply #99 on: July 05, 2020, 09:47:33 AM »
Very well put, Toad.  If I may, add a fourth step to “The mantra "maintain aircraft control, analyze the situation and take the proper action"”, and maintain situational awareness.  When it hits the fan with a non normal malfunction, the proper action is taken, and control is regained, it’s not time to relax until the aircraft is in the chocks with the engine(s) shutdown.  Both of these Max incidents demonstrated a lack of at least one or all of these four steps by the pilots, with the exception of the unidentified jump seater.  That’s the reality. 

Reading about the Ethiopian event, when the jet hit the ground at 575 mph with a descent rate of 33,000 fpm with the thrust levers at or near the forward stops, makes one wonder.  What explains the reason the thrust levers weren’t simply pulled back as a simple response of basic airmanship and situational awareness.

Boeing has and deserves a bloody nose over the MCAS and KC-46 debacle.  It’s up to them to do it right the first time from now on.

 :salute

« Last Edit: July 05, 2020, 09:52:11 AM by Puma44 »



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Offline guncrasher

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Re: Boeing 737 Max
« Reply #100 on: July 05, 2020, 11:06:21 AM »
Indeed, you said the aircraft would be incapable of flight.

If you answer "no", that a 737MAX is rendered incapable of flight if it experiences an AOA malfunction coupled with an MCAS activation, then please explain how Lion Air JT043 from Denpasar to Jakarta on Oct. 29, 2018 (the night before the crash of Lion Air 610 which was the same aircraft with the same malfunction).

How did the same aircraft make it to Jakarta with the same malfunction the night before?

no i truthfully answer your question based on the info i had at that time.  and again both yes and no would be correct based on your question.  since my only options were yes and no,  i chose no.

no because only two planes that i know of with that malfunction crashed. i could also have replied yes, because I'm also think they could have landed but for different reasons than you think.

since you asked that question to me, knowing that I'm not a pilot and know nothing about flying. i can truthfully answer either yes or no as to my knowledge both answers are correct.

you disagreeing with me is a different story. but i did answer it correctly based on my knowledge and understanding and how you phrased the question and limited the answer.


semp



you dont want me to ho, dont point your plane at me.

Offline Toad

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Re: Boeing 737 Max
« Reply #101 on: July 05, 2020, 11:52:26 AM »
Well Semp at least we completely agree on one thing: you know nothing about flying.

But hey....that night you spent in the Holiday Inn, right?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline guncrasher

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Re: Boeing 737 Max
« Reply #102 on: July 05, 2020, 12:17:59 PM »
Well Semp at least we completely agree on one thing: you know nothing about flying.

But hey....that night you spent in the Holiday Inn, right?

that's funny, it's your question to me with two narrow answers.  i explained why both are correct.

is like you asking pilots only if a plane with both wings missing at 30k can land with no loss of life. answer would be no. ask a room full of math nerds and the answer would be yes.

and both answers would be correct.

semp
you dont want me to ho, dont point your plane at me.

Offline Busher

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Re: Boeing 737 Max
« Reply #103 on: July 05, 2020, 12:30:09 PM »
Well Semp at least we completely agree on one thing: you know nothing about flying.

But hey....that night you spent in the Holiday Inn, right?

Toad, the sad and scary part of this discussion is that the Ethiopian accident is not an isolated example of the failure to revert to basic operating skills (fly the jet). The introduction of automation was inevitable with the advances in digital technology. Not a bad thing in my opinion provided that equal emphasis is placed upon both developing and maintaining the basic fundamentals of flying the airplane.
The last type endorsement I completed as my career wound down was conducted almost completely on the automation. It was the most technologically advanced airplane I ever flew. After the Proficiency Check, I asked my young Instructor, "Do we ever get to fly this thing?" He calmly answered "It's discouraged".
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: Boeing 737 Max
« Reply #104 on: July 05, 2020, 01:41:56 PM »
The last type endorsement I completed as my career wound down was conducted almost completely on the automation. It was the most technologically advanced airplane I ever flew. After the Proficiency Check, I asked my young Instructor, "Do we ever get to fly this thing?" He calmly answered "It's discouraged".


I know a guy who used to be a co-pilot (or First Officer, for you official types) for a local regional airline.  I said, "So what's it like to fly a passenger jet?"  He replied, "I know quite a lot about the autopilot."

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