I hope we'll never have an EZ mode here

[Beegerite]

EZ mode may broaden game appeal and bring in additional revenue but if it's mixed in the same arena with a fully realistic attempt at flight modeling it's going to cause flame wars like you've never imagined most specially with a group like this that was willing to cough up $30/month for the idealism of a realistic FM.  The only time that anything will be fully disclosed to the players is when HT gets to be a public corporation and one of us can buy 51% of the shares.  Before that it's their ball and they can set the rules.  What's most disturbing to me is that this is the first time that I even thought that the possibility of your a, b, and c examples could happen here, but here it is from the mouth of the man himself.  The only thing good about this whole revelation is that it's going to be a hell of a lot easyer and quicker for people to abandon a $30 sim that doesn't blow their skirt than a $10 one.  I for one wish to put on the table the fact that somebody at HT had better edit their website and remove the idealistic "we don't want to be a big corporation etc."  This whole drift is deja vu to anyone who came here from that other sim run by the BIG company.
Beeg
 
 

Originally posted by SnakeEyes:
Pyro is exactly right that there is a place for an EZ mode, and that it is a significant tool in broadening game appeal.  

Having said that, I think it's important that any EZ mode designed not confer any advantages in any significant areas of flight (except takeoff and landing, we most people seem to accept) or combat.  Moreover, I'd argue that the effects of EZ mode be fully disclosed to the players, and that it be subject to a thorough playtesting review by a cross section of players.

The biggest problem with the WB EZ mode is that:

a) The portions of the flight models that were simplified were only known generally (broad statements) rather than specifically, allowing players to only guess at what was truly different and its impact.

b) Whenever people questioned if it conferred advantages, they were brushed-off with flat denials by development that these changes did not affect combat (because they knew the reaction to the truth).

c) That the alterations actually did confer advantages in certain situations... but that those situations were both noticeable and important in terms of air combat.

IMO, as long as a reasonable amount of work is done to ensure that EZ mode does not provide any significant advantages, and as long as players are knowledgeable about those simplifications and development obtains the buy-in of the community through interaction, EZ mode in the main arena can work.

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[This message has been edited by Beegerite (edited 05-27-2000).]

[SnakeEyes]

Good post (of course) Pyro...

Despite a few minor advantages, the disadvantages far outweigh the advantages that would be conferred upon an experienced pilot... and, that's why I fly real mode (in WB or anywhere else) despite knowing of those few small areas that may provide some advantage to the EZ mode pilot.

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[easymo]

Pyro it did make me leave, in a way. The 3 reasons i left WB were. 1 the gunnery/damage model changed every time I turned around. And never for the better. 2. I hated the rps. 3. EZmode in the main. The last I might add was not direct. I hardly used my 15 free hoursa month there. However you may feel about EZmode in the ACA, at least everyone was playing the same game. I never thought they would turn it off in the main. And AH didnt have an EZmode. Thats a big reason I came to this sim. And it will be the reason I go back to the ACA. I might as well save 20 bucks.

 And I dont buy the it dont matter argument. In frstration, someone once posted on AGW that they should just go ahead and change the name from the ACA, to easymo,s arena. You can get REAL good at ezmode.

[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 05-27-2000).]

[Citabria]

well I would pray for a no Icon/no easy mode HA with 6 people in it before I played in a mixed flight model main arena.

of course I almost played the WB HA exclusively when I could afford it, rarely going to the MA and its flight model wierdness real or percieved.

The ACA never bothered me, everyone flew the same cheesed FM and the field was level.

I don't think it's necessary to mix FM's in one arena since this isn't pay by minute flight sim.

but if you do please give us diehard realism fans an HA where we can go play in the dark of no icons and no worries of ezmode dweebs  

[Citabria]

but if you guys need EZ dweeb mode for HTC's common good I'm for it.

whatever floats your boat  

[Ram1]

Just to clarify a few points.

Citabria you are incorrect. Warbirds has structural limits and dive speed where if you exceed certain speeds things start to come off your plane. Has had that for quite some time, unless you fly easymode.

On the easymode issue, Pyro outlined the issues. I think the combination of changes to the gunnery and damage models began to give a slight advantage to easymode pilots especially B&Z style pilots who could dive with immunity to structural damage. (After easymode was turned off, the number of manuever kills on FW's went up exponentially  

While many of us expected there to be about 25% easymode pilots in the MA, we were shocked to find out it was nearly 50%.

Those of us who asked IEn to make a change, showed them examples of where we felt easymode was providing an advantage. They responded by making the change to the MA, but also stated they will be starting another MA that has both Real and Easymode flight. Basically trying to appease all the players.

The real mode MA will remain RPS, while the second MA will use a different combination of ideas (Sick's Generational RPS, Axis vs Allied arena) are two that I can remember.

In reading Pyro's responses, I can only assume that AH will follow a similar path. The economic reasons are obvious as to why you need to appeal to a mass audience so I am sure there will be an easymode for them in this game as well in the future, how its implemented or segregated into different arenas will be the key IMO.

Ram1
31st Fighter Group

[Citabria]

why bother

[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 05-27-2000).]

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Ram1:
.

In reading Pyro's responses, I can only assume that AH will follow a similar path. The economic reasons are obvious as to why you need to appeal to a mass audience so I am sure there will be an easymode for them in this game as well in the future, how its implemented or segregated into different arenas will be the key IMO.

I may understand the reasons for an EZ mode. But If they ever make a mixed MA with RM and EZ modes available, and there isnt an exxclusive RM MA, then I'll be done in Aces High.

I was a newbie 4 months ago. I climbed the hill and learned the sim. I dont see why other people cant do the same...but I understand that HTC needs the money.

I only ask for them to be careful in the implementation. I wont fly in a mixed arena. IF that means I must leave I'll do it. And so I think many people here will do the same.



[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-27-2000).]

[Badger]

Great posts Pyro, SnakeEyes, Beegertite, Easymo, RAM1, RAM, Citabria....et al....

It sure has been fun to be purely a voyeur on this thread and sit on the sidelines eating popcorn.

Lots of great intellectually stimulating and healthy adversarial dialog.  I would bet that this discussion alone, helps HTC somewhat in their design dilemma of how to cope with this systemic problem within flight simulations.  How do you separate church and state, yet keep everyone happy?

Personally, as one voice only, I would be willing to pay a premium over the standard rate.  In other words, "a la carte" pricing.  I would expect, besides the conventional "please them all" MA, access to a greater realism and more mature environment (reduced icons etc etc etc) with its associated HTC supervised scenarios plus the tools that help create those, even if it meant a handful of people in there at any time.

In any event, I have enjoyed the professionalism of the discussion.  I noticed that a number of the academics didn't chime in on this one?  What, you guys all sick or something?  

I'll let you all in on a dirty little secret.  I flew WB v1.1 from 1996 onward in easy mode.  I flew easy mode for almost 2 1/2 - 3 years in all arenas and during scenarios, including the HA when it come on-line as an arena.  I did very very very very well, establishing at times a 3-1 K/D.  In spite of what all the guys in here or WB say about the mode, it gave me a distinct advantage over a real mode flyer in a few specific areas.  I had a much more stable gun platform, never having to worry about trim.  My B&Z flying was a smooth as glass and I could kill at will and RTB, as long as I kept my speed up and maintained good SA in regards to altitude.  I always fought and still do, on "My Time, My Terms, My Ground".  In T&B's with specific planes suited to this, I was able to out-turn most of the general players of normal skill sets on WB, except for the hot sticks like vigil, vila, ppit and others who were Masters of the hand/eye coordination needed to be really good at this type of game.  I could play "circle jerk" in a Spit or Zeke for an hour with the stall horn blaring while I drank beer and ate popcorn with the other hand, never worrying about stalling into the ground.  I can't count the number of times an opposing pilot has come back and said "wow..great turning"...hehe.  I graduated to learning RM, sometime in early 1999 and now, the RM mode is the same as easy mode felt to me back then.  I simply trim a lot without even thinking about it anymore.  I love the fact that there is no easy mode in AH, but I do warn HTC that there are a LOT of people going to a WB ACA at $9.95/month to simply do the "quake birds" thingy.  HTC is on the right track with the "auto take-off" kind of feature and perhaps needs to expand that kind of thinking, to help the learning curve for the "newbie", without alienating the guys who have already paid their dues.  I don't know exactly what that means, but it has something to do with the feature and function design of AH as it evolves.

Regards,
Badger

[Minotaur]

Thanks Pyro!  

What I notice quite often is that players do not want to "lose their edge".  IMO this is perceived to mean that changing something will not allow them to be as succesful or allow others to be more succesful.  This generates "fear" which often translates itself into some form of "anger" by those players.

I am not specifically a proponent of EZMode, but I do understand a handicapping system.  Many sports support a handicapping system and it works quite well at attempting to  even the playing field.  Realistically this erodes the idea of "skill" where those of less skill can triumph over those of greater skill.

However, we all (as players) have to face up to one fact.  It is not flying the plane that makes you successful.  I can fly the plane very well, but I am only moderately successful.  It is what goes on in the "brain cage" that makes a player successful.  

This translates into two forms of skill:

• Physical Skill - How well you can fly the plane
• Mental Skill - How well you understand tactics that are successful

Very quickly most players can fly the plane quite well.  Most can do fairly well in two weeks.  This is independent of wether the flight mode is fantasy, arcade, easy, advanced, accurate, difficult, hardcore or just plain impossible.

BUT...  

It takes years to develope the "know how" to be successful.  This is the most prized skill to players and income wise the most successful one for the game developer.  The idea is to add and keep customers.

I like your ideas, based on the fact that they have been successful in the past.

<Salute>

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Mino
The Wrecking Crew

[leonid]

You know when I played WB, I tried the ACA a few times, and subsequently had to fly with EZ mode.  To tell you the truth, I felt it was a real limiter on my abilities, dampening & delaying my stick & rudder movements.  Of course, by the time I was flying in the ACA, it had been a couple years since I first flew in WB.  Thus, my skills were anything, if newbie-ish.

I don't think EZ mode is all it's cranked-up to be.  If it gives some newbie a chance at living for a while, then why not?  It certainly won't do an experienced player an advantage unless they're a very, very poor pilot.

A few days ago, I was flying in my La5 and came upon a Rook F4u & spit who were lower than me.  I engaged the f4u first, dispatched it, then turned after the spit.  While maneuvering into position, I couldn't help but notice the erratic maneuvering of the spit.  I made a guns pass, and scored a single ping, only to see it break much later than I had thought it would.  Pulling up, I dove upon it again, but was confused at the spitfire, since it almost appeared to be badly damaged, and almost out of control.  On the general channel, I was immediately asked by the F4u pilot to spare the spit player as this was his first time flying in AH.  I immediately disengaged, not relishing such a kill as a 'babe in the woods'.  If EZ mode would have given that spit player more of a chance, more power to them.  Then I would've killed him  

[RAM]

Fly-by-wire 109G10 would be mortal
Fly-by-wire Spit IX same
Fly-by-wire F4U1-C too
Fly-by-wire Spit XIV when it comes, too


and I can follow and follow. EZ would be used by some "not so newbies" and make EZ mode a "cheat" mode.

As I said as long as they make an exclusive RM Main Arena , I am in. If they mix it and I have no RM MAin arena, I'm gone.

my 0.02$

[Citabria]

ah RAM...

don't you like playing chesskers?  

[Toad]

Thanks Pyro. Interesting viewpoint.

HTC has to survive for the game to progress; that's a no brainer.

If you need an EZ mode to survive as a company...well, there ya are!

My personal take is that EZ should have it's own separate arena but there are probably lots of options.

Separate arenas/accounts with different pricing might be one.

At the very least, a guy flying EZ should get that tag on his icon. "EZspit" It would give them a reason to move on to the other FM!

   

G,D,R

[jedi]

Geez, I swore I'd stay out of here until I was at least a "customer," but I can't resist.  

At least you guys now know just WHO put the Easy Mode into Warbirds, WHO put it in the same arena with Real Mode, and WHO might do it in your pristine combat world too if business requires it.

As for the analysis of whether or not it's a good idea, I'll simply point out that there are numerous EZ mode flyers who were consistently able to place in the Top 50, Top 10, and I think on one or two occasions even WIN the fighter tour of duty.  And that was over LOTS of "decent" experienced players flying in REAL mode.  I'm not a big score guy, but you have to wonder about an EZ mode "dweeb" who can put up that kind of numbers in the shark pool.

If you think EZ mode can only be used by "weak" players to give them a "fighting chance," you're a lot more naive than you think you are.  This may have been "adequately tested" when it was FIRST introduced, and no one had figured out how to "game the game" with it, but in two years, things have changed, and the "win-at-all-costs" jerks have added yet another "skill" to their bag of tricks.

Fortunately, you all don't have any jerks like that over here.  Of course, you also don't have EZ mode.

Yet.

I suggest that if you want to avoid the crap that's going on over in the "lightweight" sim, you'd do well to read those topics over there, think REAL hard about em, and let the powers that be over here know that what seemed like a good idea at the time turned out to be a BIG mistake in the long run.  Tell em to come up with some other way of bringing new players into the game, or you're gonna be looking back at this as "the good old days" and looking at some OTHER sim as the one with the "most realistic air combat."

Besides, when I DO become a customer over here, I don't wanna play with no EZ mode dweebs in MY realism arena  




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