Author Topic: What if the Italian military had been competent?  (Read 1692 times)

Offline Elfie

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Re: What if the Italian military had been competent?
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2022, 08:18:08 PM »
Perhaps the map of Europe was like this?


(Image removed from quote.)

Do you have a Legend for that map?
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Offline bj229r

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Re: What if the Italian military had been competent?
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2022, 10:04:27 PM »
HAD they been competent, mebbe Rommel wouldn't have been overrun, and an oil supply wouldn't have been lost
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Offline Elfie

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Re: What if the Italian military had been competent?
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2022, 10:50:07 PM »
HAD they been competent, mebbe Rommel wouldn't have been overrun, and an oil supply wouldn't have been lost

If the Italians had been competent they wouldn't have needed Rommel. They barely beat the Ethiopians for crying out loud. :D
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Offline GasTeddy

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Re: What if the Italian military had been competent?
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2022, 01:52:57 AM »
Do you have a Legend for that map?

It is from old Finnish Alternative History page which is all in Finnish. In that page, Germany won and page describes the world after the war.

Offline oboe

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Re: What if the Italian military had been competent?
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2022, 08:35:01 AM »
- Germany has no need to invade the Balkans and Greece.  Russian campaign begins two weeks earlier (probably with same result).

- Germany has no need to fight in North Africa.  Saves them a quarter of a million men in 1943, just in time to replace the loss of Sixth Army.

- No one listens to Churchill's "soft underbelly" arguments.  Cross-channel invasion occurs in 1943.

- Italians retain a surplus of poison gas, which is not needed to subdue the Ethiopians.

- oldman

I wonder, if the Itailans had possessed a much more competent fighting force, perhaps:

- Malta and Egypt would've fallen?
- The Royal Navy may have lost the Battle of Cape Matapan, securing Italian control of the eastern Med
- Italy, N Africa, and the Med would not have been viewed as the "soft underbelly" of the 3rd Reich

Maybe all this would've convinced the British and U.S. planners to forget about invading N. Africa in 1942, and instead use an invasion in the North (Norway?), as a practical tuneup for the inevitably massive cross-channel invasion of France?

The War would've taken an entirely different turn.   Without much of its forces being diverted to the North African campaign, the U.S. 8th Air Force buildup would've progressed faster and the strategic bombing campaign over Germany would've gotten going earlier.

Offline Elfie

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Re: What if the Italian military had been competent?
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2022, 11:47:25 AM »
Quote
Without much of its forces being diverted to the North African campaign, the U.S. 8th Air Force buildup would've progressed faster and the strategic bombing campaign over Germany would've gotten going earlier.

Excellent point ser!

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Offline mikeWe9a

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Re: What if the Italian military had been competent?
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2022, 01:42:35 PM »

- No one listens to Churchill's "soft underbelly" arguments.  Cross-channel invasion occurs in 1943.

- oldman

Cross channel invasion doesn't go any earlier.  D-Day wasn't delayed by the Italian invasion in '43.  Rather, the invasion of Italy was done in '43 because the Western Allies couldn't realistically invade Northern France that year.

Mike

Offline Oldman731

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Re: What if the Italian military had been competent?
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2022, 02:10:23 PM »
Cross channel invasion doesn't go any earlier.  D-Day wasn't delayed by the Italian invasion in '43.  Rather, the invasion of Italy was done in '43 because the Western Allies couldn't realistically invade Northern France that year.


Someone wrote a book on this a few years ago (but I can't find it quickly).  The topic has been discussed quite a lot.  Clearly the Brits didn't want to go across the channel at all, fearing Somme Part II.  Their foot-dragging, and Churchill browbeating Roosevelt, combined to put Operation Roundup off.  It's a fun hypothetical, though.  On one hand, we clearly didn't have the forces in 1943 that we had in 1944.  On the other hand, neither did the Germans, and they hadn't come near to constructing the beach defenses that they had in 1944.  Eisenhower and Marshall thought it could have been done, and they weren't morons (unless you asked Alan Brooke).

We know it worked in 1944, but at the cost of all the guys lost in the 1942-45 Mediterranean campaigns.

- oldman

Offline Elfie

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Re: What if the Italian military had been competent?
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2022, 02:24:50 PM »

Someone wrote a book on this a few years ago (but I can't find it quickly).  The topic has been discussed quite a lot.  Clearly the Brits didn't want to go across the channel at all, fearing Somme Part II.  Their foot-dragging, and Churchill browbeating Roosevelt, combined to put Operation Roundup off.  It's a fun hypothetical, though.  On one hand, we clearly didn't have the forces in 1943 that we had in 1944.  On the other hand, neither did the Germans, and they hadn't come near to constructing the beach defenses that they had in 1944.  Eisenhower and Marshall thought it could have been done, and they weren't morons (unless you asked Alan Brooke).

We know it worked in 1944, but at the cost of all the guys lost in the 1942-45 Mediterranean campaigns.

- oldman

We probably could have done it in 43 since we'd have had all those units from the Mediterranean campaigns. I think it likely we'd have waited for at least awhile though in order to build up our forces more. An amphibious assault and offensive to Germany would have been no cake walk no matter what time frame it happened in.
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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: What if the Italian military had been competent?
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2022, 03:42:56 PM »
Dieppe made the Allies rethink a '43 invasion.

Offline Shuffler

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Re: What if the Italian military had been competent?
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2022, 04:28:22 PM »
If the italians had the balls... they may have stood up to the germans. Mussolini was as big headed as the little Austrian.
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Offline Arlo

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Re: What if the Italian military had been competent?
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2022, 08:32:25 PM »
If the Italians had the balls... they may have stood up to the Germans. Mussolini was as big headed as the little Austrian.

Check history.  :aok