CAF B-17 Midair - Totally Destroyed - Dallas *GRAPHIC*

[Puma44]

Perhaps the problem is with the airboss and his plan.  The video I've seen show the P51 well above the bombers, so was the B17 off altitude or the 63?  Someone was at the wrong place at the wrong time.  If they were all on plan then it has to be the plan.

The only problem Saturday was a complete loss of situational awareness.  Not one of us is able to determine why that was.  It just happened, resulting in such a tragic loss of life.

[oboe]

This showed up for me yesterday; I've never heard of him but apparently he analyzes aviation accidents on his channel.   His comments regarding the Dallas crash start at about 22:00 mark.    TLDW; is he has long felt the idea of CAF's Warbirds on Parade, with its mixed aircraft types and speeds flying in the same small airspace, has always been an accident waiting to happen.   He also states the P-63 pilot was following the directions of the air boss to overtake the B-17.  Worth the watch, it has overhead diagrams of the flight tracks.

[Vraciu]

There would be nothing wrong with it if the fighters had a hard deck.

Self-righteous second guessing to me by this guy.

It's safe if set-up properly.  The fighters have to be at a different altitude like they are for the rest of the show.  That's the biggest flaw in it and I'm a little surprised it was choreographed that way.

I also don't see evidence the P-63 picked up speed and was cranking it around.   He was set up on the same interval from Mustang #2 as #2 was with the Lead Mustang.    The fighters were operating as a formation, all three of them. 

"Take the lead" isn't in reference to the B-17.   It has to be regarding the 51s for the NEXT pass.

[Puma44]

This showed up for me yesterday; I've never heard of him but apparently he analyzes aviation accidents on his channel.   His comments regarding the Dallas crash start at about 22:00 mark.    TLDW; is he has long felt the idea of CAF's Warbirds on Parade, with its mixed aircraft types and speeds flying in the same small airspace, has always been an accident waiting to happen.   He also states the P-63 pilot was following the directions of the air boss to overtake the B-17.  Worth the watch, it has overhead diagrams of the flight tracks.

From formation flying training day one, square one, NEVER, EVER go belly up on a rejoin or with another aircraft in the immediate vicinity. Not sure of Griner’s flight experience but, it doesn’t appear he has any actual experience with fast movers and formation flying.  His opinion about the CAF being wrong to put on these events is better left to himself.  He doesn’t have the valid experience to cast judgement.  His analysis with the graphic was interesting until he passed judgement.

[DmonSlyr]

I've heard Griner had over 35K hours and was a 777 pilot. This True?

He either mis judged completely his Alt, got too excited and didn't think to look around or check his SA. It seems like so many professionals who fly and manage these events are confused at why he would be so low after years of practicing this kind of stuff. It just seems really bizzare to me that he wouldn't know a B17 was there in this parade where everyone should know what Alt they are flying at. When I watch that one film from the store parking lot and the other front view, It seems like he should have turned in much sooner to tally with the P51s. He went way out wide and looks to be losing altitude to me. I wish we had better film rather than the first 5 seconds before he hits to see how this all lined up.

[DmonSlyr]

Watching the front view angle, it seems like he should have turned in far sooner and been out ahead of the B17 with other fighters. Look at .06 seconds in. He was much closer to the P51. From a practical standpoint, It's looks as though maybe his elevator gave out and wasn't able to pull up harder into the turn. The way it looks from that angle is that the plane couldn't turn as sharp with fighters and just so happened to line up perfectly with the B17. Would also maybe explain why he was losing alt as well.

[Vraciu]

You're not listening.  He was taking interval on the FIGHTERS not the 17.   If he was wide so was #2.   

(Also, the Kingcobra's pilot was Craig Hutain lest people get confused.)

They were in a trailing echelon for lack of a better term and he was actually the slowest of the three fighters.   He WAS NOT FORMING UP on the B-17.

[DmonSlyr]

:headscratch:You're not listening.  He was taking interval on the FIGHTERS not the 17.   If he was wide so was #2.   

(Also,  his name was Craig Hutain.)

They were in a trailing echelon for lack of a better term and he was actually the slowest of the three fighters.   He WAS NOT FORMING UP on the B-17.

That's what I'm saying. But at .06 seconds into the front view film, see how close they were. Why did he go out so wide? You don't even see the P51 in the rest of that video because he was way ahead. I'm thinking it was an elevator that went bad. Or his controls locked up. That's my best guess.

[Vraciu]

Look at the video I posted from the front. 

The two fighter wingmen are taking IDENTICAL spacing. 

[DmonSlyr]

Look at the video I posted from the front. 

The two fighter wingmen are taking IDENTICAL spacing.

Yes, look at .06 seconds. Why did he go out so wide and continue to lose alt from there? It's almost like he purposely went off course from staying with the P51s.

[Vraciu]

Yes, look at .06 seconds. Why did he go out so wide and continue to lose alt from there? It's almost like he purposely went off course from staying with the P51s.

His spacing is the SAME.

[DmonSlyr]

His spacing is the SAME.

It doesn't appear like that to me though it could be an illusion from the film. Are there any more films or are these 3 it?

I am also really surprised he didn't see the B17 before they started the turn. Which is why I wish we had a longer video. Its crazy to me that he wouldn't have seen it. 

[Vraciu]

It doesn't appear like that to me though it could be an illusion from the film. Are there any more films or are these 3 it?

I am also really surprised he didn't see the B17 before they started the turn. Which is why I wish we had a longer video. Its crazy to me that he wouldn't have seen it.

Look at this one.


https://twitter.com/DavidSFOX4/status/1591522623376211968?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1591522623376211968%7Ctwgr%5E0502e50da24cef814b493a716fb1c9ea361052a3%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thedrive.com%2Fthe-war-zone%2Fb-17-in-horrific-mid-air-collision-at-dallas-airshow


He didn't see it because he was looking to his left at Mustang #2.   

The leader looks like GUNFIGHTER II and the #2 is the Red-Tail BY REQUEST/TUSKEGEE AIRMEN.

[DmonSlyr]

Look at this one.


https://twitter.com/DavidSFOX4/status/1591522623376211968?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1591522623376211968%7Ctwgr%5E0502e50da24cef814b493a716fb1c9ea361052a3%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thedrive.com%2Fthe-war-zone%2Fb-17-in-horrific-mid-air-collision-at-dallas-airshow


He didn't see it because he was looking to his left at Mustang #2.

Still seems way of course to me relative to the other guys. Are there any radio comms? Were the other mustangs in the wrong here too?

[Vraciu]

Still seems way of course to me relative to the other guys. Are there any radio comms? Were the other mustangs in the wrong here too?

If he is wide it is not by very much.

I think Lead may have been wide.   MAYBE.   

I have not seen any coms yet, but LIVE ATC may have something archived.  You will have 30 days from recording before it drops off the site.